guitarpreacher
New Member
However it exists for the purpose of reaching the not saved. </font>[/QUOTE]And making disciples out of the saved
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Seeker Sensitive: Is It Biblical?
- Thread starter MikeinGhana
- Start date
Hope of Glory
New Member
The church (little "c") is for the saved, because the Church (big "c") is the saved. Some individuals within the Church (and the church) are for reaching those who are not saved. Not everyone is given the gift of evangelism.
MikeinGhana
New Member
I think I spoke clearly before. I am simply asking if there is such a line that we should not cross in our methods to reach the lost. I have seen people say "no" there is not a method that we cannot use as long as the message is not compromised. I am asking if you believe this atement to be true.
I do believe there are methods that God is not
pleased with. I do not lump all seeker sensitive services together because I know they do not all do the same things. There are certainly seeker sensitive churches, if I can say that and be understood, that are perfectly biblical in their methods. I am asking if there are some churches, while trying to reach the lost, cross the line.
Do you mean those who are not sharing their faith and discipling anyone? </font>[/QUOTE]gb, thats a rather exclusive view, isn't it? No, I mean those Christians who are hurting and struggling and needing to gain insights for their walk with God.
Wouldnt that cover all of us?
If you believe that then why are there about 90 percent of the people who warm the pews each Sunday who never lead anyone to Christ and even less who never disciple anyone in an entire lifetime? </font>[/QUOTE]Did I ever say we were all fulfilling our purpose perfectly? No again. Simply because we aren't doing what we ought as well as we ought is not an argument against what the main purpose of the church SERVICES ought to be.
Hope of Glory
New Member
But, if you preach the truth, the world tells you that you are full of hate and spite and malice. If you preach the truth, according to the world, you are not treating them with "dignity and respect".
I think that you understand me to be disagreeing with you on this subject, which I'm not. I'm just trying to ascertain that there is a different perspective upon what treating people with "dignity and respect" means.
To many, even within the church, if you tell a homosexual that homosexuality is a sin, then you're disrespecting him.
Many of the seeker sensitive churches here locally (the only ones I can speak of) will open their doors to homosexuals and tell them that God loves them just as they are; after all, He made them that way. They will put totems up in church so as not to offend the pagans. They avoid the truth.
On the other hand, if you stick to the truth, you are treated with spite and malice. If you preach the truth, the world, by and large, will hate you. A few will rejoice. (Even many within the Church will hate you.)
I think that you understand me to be disagreeing with you on this subject, which I'm not. I'm just trying to ascertain that there is a different perspective upon what treating people with "dignity and respect" means.
To many, even within the church, if you tell a homosexual that homosexuality is a sin, then you're disrespecting him.
Many of the seeker sensitive churches here locally (the only ones I can speak of) will open their doors to homosexuals and tell them that God loves them just as they are; after all, He made them that way. They will put totems up in church so as not to offend the pagans. They avoid the truth.
On the other hand, if you stick to the truth, you are treated with spite and malice. If you preach the truth, the world, by and large, will hate you. A few will rejoice. (Even many within the Church will hate you.)
That is the problem I hear among many lost people I talk with. They simply do not feel welcome as an outsider. They feel as though Christians are more exclusionary rather than inclusionary. When a non-believer walks in the door I want the Christians to treat them with dignity and respect and make them feel glad they are there. We as Christians have the greatest news to give. Why should we not come with great joy and gladness at the presence of non-Christians? If they are willing to come and hear me preach the straight stuff I am willing to let them in anytime.
How would we feel if we went to someone's home and they did not make us feel welcome? Would we return? </font>[/QUOTE]Didn't I make it clear that I was not talking about having an unwelcoming attitude? I believe I recall saying we must be welcoming and warm to anyone who comes.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Looking at my Bible I'm not seeing the church (little c) in there.
I also don't see the gift of evangelism in there. Are you saying that unless God has bestowed a special gift on you that you are not responsible for sharing your faith with the lost?
guitarpreacher
New Member
That is the problem I hear among many lost people I talk with. They simply do not feel welcome as an outsider. They feel as though Christians are more exclusionary rather than inclusionary. When a non-believer walks in the door I want the Christians to treat them with dignity and respect and make them feel glad they are there. We as Christians have the greatest news to give. Why should we not come with great joy and gladness at the presence of non-Christians? If they are willing to come and hear me preach the straight stuff I am willing to let them in anytime.
How would we feel if we went to someone's home and they did not make us feel welcome? Would we return? </font>[/QUOTE]Didn't I make it clear that I was not talking about having an unwelcoming attitude? I believe I recall saying we must be welcoming and warm to anyone who comes. </font>[/QUOTE]Problem is, at least in the vast majority of churches I know of, that's just not happening. And even if it's happening at your church, it's not happening at enough places that the perception among unchurched people is that they won't be welcomed at church. Especially if they have any obvious lifestyle issues. And even if their perception is totally wrong, it's still their perception and they are not coming to church. So what do you do? Be content to let them stay lost. Try to convince them that they're wrong in what they believe about the church? Not sure how you do that if they won't come to you. Or do you, as most seeker sensative type churches do, meet them where they are, build a relationship with them and introduce them to Jesus.
Can you see God watching over us, and saying, "Look at that! Pastor Russell is sharing the Gospel with that doper. I died for that guy and I really want him saved. I sure do wish P.R. would get out of them blue jeans and into a suit so I can bless what he's doing." Or on a Sunday morning, "Wow, the house if full of people that need a relationship with me. I'd love to touch every one of them this morning, but that guitar riff during praise time was just a little too edgy for me to bless them today."
When Hope of Glory stated his idea of church with a little "c" I think he was defining for us something which we needed to clarify. We are using the same word for two different connotations.
The "C"hurch is a group of people.....we have a job to go out there and reach the lost, to be sensitive to those around us and meet them where they are. In this regard we very much need to do a better job, and not be exclusive, and realize that, as the song goes, "their sin which seems so great to us, is no greater than our own."
But within this discussion we have also been talking about "c"hurch with a little "c", which would be the specific times we meet together and have services. The services we conduct ought to be markedly different than the sorts of gatherings the world would conduct. We are a "different" people....peculiar.....and the world will see these gatherings as odd and wonder at them....at least they ought to. There's going to be many scoffers, the Bible tells us that.
Ive been a part of a very large Baptist church in southern CA. A place seen normally as very difficult to minister in, especially without compromising. The preaching is hard there, they are unapologetic but nice.....yet 3 or 4 thousand people will show up on a Sunday. The individual people are seeker sensitive....the church services are probably not what you here would call "seeker sensitive". Just guessing of course, but I think its a good guess.
The "C"hurch is a group of people.....we have a job to go out there and reach the lost, to be sensitive to those around us and meet them where they are. In this regard we very much need to do a better job, and not be exclusive, and realize that, as the song goes, "their sin which seems so great to us, is no greater than our own."
But within this discussion we have also been talking about "c"hurch with a little "c", which would be the specific times we meet together and have services. The services we conduct ought to be markedly different than the sorts of gatherings the world would conduct. We are a "different" people....peculiar.....and the world will see these gatherings as odd and wonder at them....at least they ought to. There's going to be many scoffers, the Bible tells us that.
Ive been a part of a very large Baptist church in southern CA. A place seen normally as very difficult to minister in, especially without compromising. The preaching is hard there, they are unapologetic but nice.....yet 3 or 4 thousand people will show up on a Sunday. The individual people are seeker sensitive....the church services are probably not what you here would call "seeker sensitive". Just guessing of course, but I think its a good guess.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Bapmom,
What would you call a seeker sensative service?
What would you call a seeker sensative service?
a properly seeker sensitive one? One in which the preacher talks like "real people", using layman's terms, not alot of fancy wordings and trying to expound indepth on the various Greek meanings and tenses of verbs. (This is not a bash on Greek education...
) I think while a pastor ought to know his Greek, he probably should just explain it without needing to prove to the listeners that he does indeed know it well.
It is the service where the singing is alive, the people are friendly and happy, and the message can be understood clearly by those actually doing the listening.
It is the service where the singing is alive, the people are friendly and happy, and the message can be understood clearly by those actually doing the listening.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Bapmom,
I'm impressed! That's a pretty good definition. So would you not agree that your definition can take on many different forms? For instance, where I live I can go 30 miles southeast and be in the heart of the Mississippi River Delta. Or I can go 30 miles southwest and be in West Little Rock. In the Delta most are farmers, education is usually limited and most are very poor. In West Little Rock they are bankers, lawyers, doctors, etc., highly educated and very wealthy. Talking like real people in the Delta don't sound anything like talking like real people in W.L.R.
Most of the time when people want to argue seeker sensative, what they really want to do is argue about contemporary music, modern translations or topical messages. Using your definition, You can be as traditional as you can possibly be, and still be seeker sensative. Or you could be ultra contemporary and still miss the mark. It's about knowing your community and what it will take to win them to Christ.
I'm impressed! That's a pretty good definition. So would you not agree that your definition can take on many different forms? For instance, where I live I can go 30 miles southeast and be in the heart of the Mississippi River Delta. Or I can go 30 miles southwest and be in West Little Rock. In the Delta most are farmers, education is usually limited and most are very poor. In West Little Rock they are bankers, lawyers, doctors, etc., highly educated and very wealthy. Talking like real people in the Delta don't sound anything like talking like real people in W.L.R.
Most of the time when people want to argue seeker sensative, what they really want to do is argue about contemporary music, modern translations or topical messages. Using your definition, You can be as traditional as you can possibly be, and still be seeker sensative. Or you could be ultra contemporary and still miss the mark. It's about knowing your community and what it will take to win them to Christ.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Then how would you deal with a small congregation that runs the gamut from 8th grade dropouts to NASA astronauts, with everything in between?
BTW, thanks for saving me a lot of typing; good definitions.
BTW, thanks for saving me a lot of typing; good definitions.
guitarpreacher
New Member
That would be an extremely rare thing. Not to say that you won't have someone who is wealthier than your average member, or poorer than your average member, but you can expect 80% of your congregation to be of the same socio-economic class. Most people go to church in their communities, and if your community is made up of 8th grade drop outs, there are probably not going to be very many doctor/lawyer/banker housing areas. People tend to hang with other people like them.
guitarpreacher,
Im glad we can agree on this. I agree that very often when talking in these discussions people just want to argue the music issue. Just as we have certain perceptions, I believe that those within the CCM circles tend to think that the more traditional churches are by definition NOT seeker sensitive, and that was what I was trying to address.
I also believe that if a preacher keeps his wordings relatively simple, even erudite, intelligent people will appreciate that. Truly intelligent, thinking people will be busy at home digging deeper in their Bible anyway. And then those who are less educated or even "simple" will not be left behind by the preaching.
Im glad we can agree on this. I agree that very often when talking in these discussions people just want to argue the music issue. Just as we have certain perceptions, I believe that those within the CCM circles tend to think that the more traditional churches are by definition NOT seeker sensitive, and that was what I was trying to address.
I also believe that if a preacher keeps his wordings relatively simple, even erudite, intelligent people will appreciate that. Truly intelligent, thinking people will be busy at home digging deeper in their Bible anyway. And then those who are less educated or even "simple" will not be left behind by the preaching.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Bapmom,
For me, keeping it simple is the only option I have, if you know what I mean.
For me, keeping it simple is the only option I have, if you know what I mean.