Seeking to Understand Revelation

[Ed Edwards]

Verse Search Results (The King James Version (Authorized))
RESULTS: 1 - 1 of 1 total results

Lu 21:36 - Show ContextWatch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mel Miller: //... Jews will not "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man" ... //

1. remind us where this scripture is

2. remind us which scripture justifies the JUMP TO A CONCLUSION
that only Jews can "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"

 

[Mel Miller]

Mr. Ed Edward:

Why, sir, have you deliberately changed my statement by deleting part of
one sentence that follows:
______________________________________________________________
Quote by Mel:
"The Jews will be prepared to accept Messiah by the preaching of the Two Prophets! But the Temple on earth is not yet ready to be cleansed as the Jews will not "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man" UNTIL they see Him appearing with millions who `pierced' Him and that causes them to `mourn' and be begging to `be kept alive'!!! Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Luke 21:28,31,36; Luke 17:30-33.
______________________________________________________________

Verse Search Results (The King James Version (Authorized))

Lu 21:36 - Show Context. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mel Miller: //... Jews will not "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man" ... //

Remind us which scripture justifies the JUMP TO A CONCLUSION that only Jews can "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"

______________________________________________________________

Mr. Ed Edwards,

Is this the kind of tactics you use to misrepresent what another person
has a right to believe and to interpret on the meaning of Jesus' words?

 

[skypair]

Skypair, you and I see a lot in common with respect to the fact that the
armies must be gathered to Armageddon to fulfill the "collecting" of Tares to the Winepress before Jesus sends the angels to "gather the Wheat"!
You do realize this fact below by acknowledging the Mystery of God was finished...yet there remains the "delay" of 3 1/2 days while armies finish
their invasion of Israel after the Beast kills the Two Witnesses.

Let's get the images correct -- the "tares" are not collected TO Armageddon. They are collected FROM Armageddon by the angels as Christ is descending to earth with His armies, Rev 19:14. The armies of the world are gathered as grapes TO Armageddon PRIOR to the battle, Rev 14:19. Israel is gathered TO Jerusalem PRIOR to the battle as the "earth is reaped," Rev 14:15. This is all PRELUDE to Christ's return!

The reference in Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 stating that "after these things, I looked and behold..." refers to the Drama in Heaven's Temple which opens for the Praise of the Martyrs (7:9-14), Prayers of the Saints (8:1-5) and
Portents of the Wrath of the 7th Trumpet where it says the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN WAS OPEN!!! Rev.11:19.

"Praise of the martyrs??" What?? I read palms in their hands and praise to the Lamb! What are you talking about??

And the "prayers of the saints" cause what? The ashes of the censor to be cast upon the earth -- causing what? Rev 16:21 -- 200 lb HAILSTONES! Like I said -- the 7th seal. The prayers of the saints have NOTHING that I can see to do with the tabernacle in heaven. Where do you see that in Rev 8:5. We see "thunders, lightnings..." in Rev 16:18 like in Rev 8:5 because Rev 16 is where ALL the 7th judgments are complered!!

This alone forces the TARES to finish being gathered to Armageddon before Jesus sends three Angels to "collect them to the Winepress" and on that day sends many Angels to "gather the WHEAT" from earth to heaven!!

Sounds good BUT -- what about the rapture order? the saints taken out BEFORE Armageddon?? BEFORE the wrath??

Yes, indeed, "collecting Tares" is the "Mystery that must be finished" even though it occurs on the same last DAY as that of "gathering the wheat"!
The wheat must be "gathered together above" to receive their Rewards!!
The 1000-Yr-Reward at Rev.20:4; Rev.25 follow the First Resurrection!!!

I'm trying hard to respond to all your points -- isn't Rev 20:4 on the earth?? I don't see the gathering to heaven of the wheat. Mt 13 merely says "into My barn." To me, that is into the MK on earth. And yes, for Israel, the MK is the "1000 year Reward." But where is the church in your scenario??

The 7th Trumpet comes after the 3 1/2 days of DELAY for three things: One: "The Temple was Open" for the Coronation of Christ! Rev.11:19. Two: The Witnesses rise up to join the Martyrs at the Tribunal of Seal 7!!
Three: The Verdict of the Angel of Fire, Rev.8:5, will immediately result in the Coronation of Christ and the announcement of the "appointed time" for Resurrection, Rewards and Retribution; for "God's wrath has come"!!!

I agree with the completion of the 7th trumpet after 3 1/2 days. That's in Rev 16:19-20 -- the destruction of Satan's kingdom Babylon just like the 6 trumpets led to setting it up! But friend, the rest of what you reply is not directly stated in Rev 11:19. Again, we're looking at Rev 16:18-21 -- "thunder, lightning..." -- the 7th judgments, the preludes to Christ's return. There is no "coronation" to be seen.

The witnesses rose at midtrib. "Tribunal?" Seventh seal?" Where is this stuff? Rev 8:5 is prelude - not to "coronation" -- to RETURN. Hoenstly, I don't see "coronation" anywhere in Revelation. Show it to me and I guess I will have to believe it but I don't see it yet.

skypair

 

[skypair]

mel,

The Jews will be prepared to accept Messiah by the preaching of the Two Prophets! But the Temple on earth is not yet ready to be cleansed as the Jews will not "look up and stand erect and begin to beg to escape all these things and prevail to stand before the Son of Man" until they see Him appearing with millions who "pierced" Him and that causes them to "mourn" and be begging to "be kept alive"!!! Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Luke 21:28,31,36; Luke 17:30-33.

Honestly, friend, I'm trying to follow your "walk" step-by-step here. I got this great Instaverse tool that lets me just put my cursor on your citations (thanks for that!) and see what you are referring to. But I think you are reading something "on the side," as they say, cause I can't find some of the assertions you make in the text. I agree with the first sentence but "stand erect and begin to beg?" Those are not your words nor the words of the text, Luke 21:36. What gives? "Beg?" C'mon.

How do you know the temple won't be ready to be cleansed? How do you know that the 2 witnesses, coming at the beginning of the trib to "restore all things," Mal 4:5, don't restore proper, acceptable worship in the rebuilt temple? How do you know that the temple is not subsequnetly "desolated" by the AoD (I mean, how could it be "desolated" if it wasn't cleansed to begin with??)

I think you are reading someone else's "script" on this and you've been able to explain it as well as he has -- but it's flawed, at least so far as I have been able to "track" it.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair,

This is getting involved so I will respond to each quote separately.
Quote:
My Quote:
Skypair, you and I see a lot in common with respect to the fact that the armies must be gathered to Armageddon to fulfill the "collecting" of Tares to the Winepress before Jesus sends the angels to "gather the Wheat"! You do realize this fact below by acknowledging the Mystery of God was finished...yet there remains the "delay" of 3 1/2 days while armies finish their invasion of Israel after the Beast kills the Two Witnesses.
Your Quote:
Let's get the images correct -- the "tares" are not collected TO Armageddon. They are collected FROM Armageddon by the angels as Christ is descending to earth with His armies, Rev 19:14. The armies of the world are gathered as grapes TO Armageddon PRIOR to the battle, Rev 14:19. Israel is gathered TO Jerusalem PRIOR to the battle as the "earth is reaped," Rev 14:15. This is all PRELUDE to Christ's return!
____________________________________________________________

The "tares" are collected symbolically by the angels AT The Armageddon
after they are gathered TO Armageddon literally and reaped symbolically
by the Son of Man from a white cloud! His reaping of earth's "tares" symbolically includes all unbelievers; but the word "collect" is used in Matt.13 and Rev.14 for the separate symbolic act by the angels with reference to overripe grapes among the tares, the special target of "God's great anger"!! Rev.14:14-19. "Treading" the Winepress (vs.20; Rev.19:15) awaits the Tribunal of Seal 7 since the two symbolic acts occur while the Son of Man is on His way to heaven and the Open Temple Drama with the 144,000 Jews that the Lamb has just rescued!!!

But first, before the Temple Drama, I see the Son of Man taking these Jews to heaven as His "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb" (Rev.14:1-5) and they join the Martyrs over a river/sea of fire in Rev.15:1-5; Dan.7:9-10 to "present Him to the Ancient of Days and Crown Him King of kings"! Dan.7:13-14. Daniel and John both use flashbacks since the Temple "was open after these things" as of Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9!! In the first flashback, they enter the Temple (15:5;7:15) to PRAISE both God and the Lamb" (Act One) just before the Court Sits in Judgment (Dan.7:10,22; Rev.8:1-5 at the Temple ALTAR in Seal 7); and the Angel renders the Verdict after a review of six Trumpets (already passed by; Rev.11:14) and their PRAYERS ascend to God from the Altar (Act Two); and for Christ's Coronation with the Temple still open to climax the Drama in Act Three as the King "begins to reign"!! Dan.7:14; Rev.11:15-19.

All this occurs on the Last Day before the Son of Man literally "gathers the wheat to the Synagogue (noun; the barn in the sky; 2 Thess.2:1)! Only Jesus and Paul use verbal or nominative forms of episunago for Jesus'
"gathering together above of the elect from earth to heaven" and for the "angels to complete the gathering in the heavens unto Jesus" on the last day!! He gathers the tares of earth and three angels "collect the grapes" at the "Winepress of God's great anger" (thumos; not orgay) just before the Hour of Judgment and Hour of Trial on all mankind begin!!! 14:7; 3:10.

It is important to understand the use of the word "delay" with reference to CHRONOS time that ends when "God's mystery was finished" on Day #1260 "in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound! (The days after Rev.10:6-7 correspond to the days after Rev.11:6-7). That word allows for the 3 1/2 days remaining until the KAIROS time appointed for Christ's Coronation, for God's wrath and for the Three R's waiting to be fulfilled on the "unknown last day"!! Christ "begins to reign as King on the Last Day...at the 7th Trumpet!!! Dan.7:14; Zech.14:9; Rev.11:15-17.

With the Two Witnesses killed, up to 4 days of Delay remain waiting for:
1. Them to rise up to heaven the last day after a qreat quake. 11:12-13.
2. The last martyr to be killed who must be killed. Rev.6:9-11.
3. Armies to finish gathering to Armageddon while we WATCH. 16:14-16.
4. The Panorama in the heavens on the last day while we WATCH.
5. 144K to be sealed/rescued while 4 winds are held back. 7:1-8; 14:1-5.
6. Tsunamis to move islands out of place. Luke 21:25; Rev.6:14;16:20.
7. One hundred verses in Rev. to be fulfilled in six hours on the last day.
8. Announcement of God's wrath to conclude the 3-Act Temple Drama.
9. Rejoicing in Heaven (Rev.18:20 to Rev.19:10) because:
....a. The appointed (kairos) time "has come" for the three R's.
....b. The Wedding of the Lamb "has come". Rev.19:7.
....c. Heaven will Open and Christ Descends. Rev.19:11; Rev.17:14.
10. Our "any-moment" Rapture while we continue WATCHING. Rev.16:15.

"Delay" is OK if we note the difference between "waiting" and "watching"!
We will "wait" for the killing of the Two Prophets but "watch" for them to be raised up; for the rescue of the 144K from Mt. Zion; for the complete gathering of the wicked to Armageddon and for the Presence of Messiah while the Jews "stand erect, look up for "the Sign" of His Presence and pray to escape all these things that happenS ON that Day; and they will "know their redemption/kingdom are near"!! Luke 17:27-30; 21:25-36.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair,

Continuing with Post #43, let me repeat the next quotes:

My Quote:
The reference in Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9 stating that "after these things, I looked and behold..." refers to the Drama in Heaven's Temple which opens for the Praise of the Martyrs (7:9-14), the Prayers of the Saints (8:1-5) and Portents of the Wrath of the 7th Trumpet where it says, in both places, the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN "WAS OPEN"!!! Rev.15:5; Rev.11:19.

Your Quote:
"Praise of the martyrs??" What?? I read palms in their hands and praise to the Lamb! What are you talking about??

And the "prayers of the saints" cause what? The ashes of the censor to be cast upon the earth -- causing what? Rev 16:21 - 200 lb HAILSTONES! Like I said -- the 7th seal. The prayers of the saints have NOTHING that I can see to do with the tabernacle in heaven. Where do you see that in Rev 8:5. We see "thunders, lightnings..." in Rev 16:18 like in Rev 8:5 because Rev 16 is where ALL the 7th judgments are complered!!
_____________________________________________________________

The answer to the "prayer" of the Martyrs is the subject of Rev.6:9-11
and Rev.7:9-11. We know the Martyrs had just "come out of the great
tribulation" because of the Elder's surprise in asking who they are and
from whence they "had come". He answers his own rhetorical question. Rev.7:13-14. This is the 2nd of seven things that "has come" on the Last Day with the Day of Wrath being the first. Rev.6:17; Rev.7:14. The Martyrs "had come" out of great tribulation to "PRAISE" God and the Lamb for the first time...causing the Angels to join in their praise during the first of Three Acts of the Temple Drama. Rev.7:12.

The "prayers of the Saints" in Act Two (Rev.8:1-5), the Tribunal of Seal 7, do not "cause the 100 lb. blocks of hail"! But their prayers "back-up" the evidence presented by six of the seven Trumpet Angels, Rev.8:2, as part of Act Two!! Therefore the six Trumpeters are really mentioned "out of place" (in vs.2) with respect to the post-Court's description beginning in Rev.8:6!!!

The six Trumpeters appear prior to the actual witness given by prayers accumulated and kept in bowls held by 24 elders until the last day! The evidence of six Trumpets goes on display IN THE TEMPLE for about a "half hour" (vs.1) before they are described as part of the next "flashback" to what had already "passed by"!! God's patience is exhausted at the Verdict by the Angel of Fire and it leads immediately to Christ's Coronation in the 7th Trumpet...and the appointed time for God's wrath and the three R's!!! Rev.11:15-17; Dan.7:9-14.

At the 7th Trumpet the "great hail" of Rev.16:21 begins! Rev.11:19. The Storm Theophany of "voices, thunders, lightnings and earthquake" that end Seal 7, Trump 7 and Plague 7 reveals the growing intensity of God's anger until God's Wrath "has come" at the 7th Trumpet, the 4th of seven things that "has come" on the Last Day!! The final implosion of the 7th Plague, after being suspended in the air (for the events of Rev.6:12 to Rev.8:5 and Rev.14:1 to Rev.15:5; and Rev.11:15-19; but not in a precise textwise order) leads instantly to the 7th Trumpet's Coronation and Kairos Moment for the three R's...and the exact moment for Mystery Babylon's final fall... by history's greatest quake!!! Rev.16:18-21.

This is when giant Tsunamies and the great quake's aftershocks complete the movement of Islands out of place, a movement begun at the signs of Seal Six! Rev.6:14-17; Rev.16:18-21. And now the Mountains and Cities also disappear on the same day!! Tsunamis travel at the speed of 500 miles per hour to affect the "seas and surfs that cause men's hearts to fail from fear on that Day"...the very first thing referred to by Jesus to occur
with the initial signs of God's Day of Wrath in Luke's account as well as Rev.6:14-17!!! Luke 21:25.

Just as six Trumpets have "passed by" before the Court sits "in the days after the tribulation" (in Dan.7 and Seal 7); but also before the 7th Trumpet sounds during the open-Temple Drama, so the 6th Seal opens and the Day of Wrath "has come" before the Court sits in Seal 7!

When God's Day of wrath "has come", the Plagues had "manifested that His deeds were holy and just"!! Rev.16:7; Rev.15:1,4 (Aorist Indicative.)

Chronos-Time and God's "mystery have been finished" as of the death of the Two Witnesses! Armies have gathered to Armageddon (past tense) prior to the decree "It is Done" from the throne in the Temple at the 7th Plague's suspension in the air!! Waiting for events of the Last Day also includes watching for the "any-moment" Presence of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ...for with "smoke" gone from the Open Temple, He "begins to reign as King"!!! Rev.11:17; Zech.14:9; Rev.2:25-27; Rev.19:15 ("He shall reign with an iron rod").

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

Hi mel, :wave:

The "tares" are collected symbolically by the angels AT The Armageddon after they are gathered TO Armageddon literally and reaped symbolically by the Son of Man from a white cloud! His reaping of earth's "tares" symbolically includes all unbelievers; but the word "collect" is used in Matt.13 and Rev.14 for the separate symbolic act by the angels with reference to overripe grapes among the tares, the special target of "God's great anger"!! Rev.14:14-19.

If you read closely Rev 14, I think you will see that the angels reap the earth gathering wheat and tares. Then Christ gathers the grapes of wrath there next (You did realize, didn't you, that Satan has his own "vine," right?). Isn't that the order? Jews/wheat and their spineless false Jews/tares then the Gentile armies of AC? "Overripe grapes among the tares" is your invention, right?

Gotta go -- more later.

skypair

 

[skypair]

mel,

"Treading" the Winepress (vs.20; Rev.19:15) awaits the Tribunal of Seal 7 since the two symbolic acts occur while the Son of Man is on His way to [????] heaven and the Open Temple Drama with the 144,000 Jews that the Lamb has just rescued!!!

You lost me there. I see Rev 14:20 and 19:15. The "2 symbolic acts" are 14:14-19 I assume. The tribunal is Rev 11:15-18?? The Son of man goes TO heaven -- doesn't come from heaven?? So between the "cloud" scenes in Rev 14 and the coming from heaven in Rev 19, you're saying that Christ "rescues" the 144,000 and takes them to the heavenly tabernacle? Is that the rapture? Is Rev 11:15-18 the Bema? I'm confused. :BangHead:

Here's my simple scenario: Rev 14 - gathers Israel, then Satan's forces to Jerusalem and environs. We know this happens, right?

Rev 15 previews the "fire" that those saints living on the earth must go through (Rev 16-18) before entering the tabernacle/MK.

Rev 16 is the bowls causing Satan to let Israel return to Jerusalem and ending (18-21) with all the 7th judgments completed (ergo "thunder, lightning,..." that accompanied each in Rev 8:5, 11:19, 16:18).

Rev 17-18 tracks the development of Babylon pretrib to destruction just prior to Armageddon.

Rev 19 is Christ's return to Armageddon.

In all those verses, I don't see anyone "taken up" or "out." Those in Rev 15 and the 144,000 endure the GT and enter the MK, the 144,000 being sealed FIRST ("firstfruit") and the remnant being sealed during the MK.


Back in a minute.

skypair

 

[skypair]

mel,

The answer to the "prayer" of the Martyrs is the subject of Rev.6:9-11
and Rev.7:9-11. We know the Martyrs had just "come out of the great
tribulation" because of the Elder's surprise in asking who they are and
from whence they "had come".

Good! I'm glad you see Rev 7:9 as martyrs and not raptured church.

That being said, I believe that the martyrs in Rev 6:9 pray for vengeance -- they are told they must await the "fellowservants" of Rev 7:9, the GT martyrs. The first group, to me, are the converts of the left behind church (from 2Thes 2:9-11) and the latter martyrs are the converts of Israel's "kingdom" gospel, Mt 24:14.

He answers his own rhetorical question. Rev.7:13-14. This is the 2nd of seven things that "has come" on the Last Day with the Day of Wrath being the first. Rev.6:17; Rev.7:14. The Martyrs "had come" out of great tribulation to "PRAISE" God and the Lamb for the first time...causing the Angels to join in their praise during the first of Three Acts of the Temple Drama. Rev.7:12.

I'll grant you that for now. My thought is that those walking through the glass and fire represent those on the earth who have yet to go through the fires, but there is some ambiguity there for me.

The "prayers of the Saints" in Act Two (Rev.8:1-5), the Tribunal of Seal 7, do not "cause the 100 lb. blocks of hail"!

I'm seeing their prayer as one for vengeance in Rev 6:10 but could also be the prayers of the saints in Rev 5:8. Either way, I see the incense is the "prayers of these saints" in Rev 8:3 as the vengeance of the 7th seal.

But their prayers "back-up" the evidence presented by six of the seven Trumpet Angels, Rev.8:2, as part of Act Two!! Therefore the six Trumpeters are really mentioned "out of place" (in vs.2) with respect to the post-Court's description beginning in Rev.8:6!!!

This is getting problematic for me even visualizing the events of Rev 6-12 as coming after midtrib. Yes, the 7th seal and 7th trumpet begin before midtrib and end in Rev 16:18-21. Yes, likely the 1/3 of mankind slain by the 6th trumpet probably includes many after midtrib. And there are pre-Rev 13 "glimpses" at the last events of the tribulation. But I'm not even seeing a framework in The Revelation for there being such a wholesale shuffling of the actual plagues (seals and trumpets) into the GT.

Maybe you could "get me up to speed" on what I have replied to so far and show me why AC from out of the pit (5th trumpet) and why Satan is cast down (7th trumpet) appear AFTER midtrib rather than in the order of their mention (Rev 8-12) premidtrib??

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

I'm just personally glad to know that some folks have most, if not all of 'Revelation' all figured out.

I just ain't got that far yet. And comes from someone, namely yours truly, who has been privileged??? to sit through a verse by verse or chapter by chapter study in the book by six -count 'em, six, different pastors, been through 'Revelation' twice in SS class, as we have used the book series for several years, including teaching some of it a few times, in the absence of the pastor and one times teaching it as the SS teacher, had a three hour college course on Daniel/Revelation, interned the same course as a grad student, working toward a grad degree, including preparing outlines of both books, (with the outcome of this that the School President would not let me teach the class in his absence, as was the normal procedure, because I did not always agree with everything he believed about it, and would not agree, in advance, to let him basically dictate what I might say, although that was never stated openly). I've also read it from beginning to end two other times, merely to get a POV that might not be dictated by something I might have gotten from someone else, here, as well.

And guess what?? I've still got at least three questions about the book of Revelation! :tongue3:

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair,

Before responding to your Posts, let me address the last quotes:

"Yes, the 7th seal and 7th trumpet begin before midtrib and end in Rev. 16:18-21. Yes, likely the 1/3 of mankind slain by the 6th trumpet probably includes many after midtrib. And there are pre-Rev 13 "glimpses" at the last events of the tribulation. But I'm not even seeing a framework in The Revelation for there being such a wholesale shuffling of the actual plagues (seals and trumpets) into the GT.

Maybe you could "get me up to speed" on what I have replied to so far and show me why AC from out of the pit (5th trumpet) and why Satan is cast down (7th trumpet) appear AFTER midtrib rather than in the order of their mention (Rev 8-12) premidtrib?? skypair
_____________________________________________________________

The "placement" of the "signs of the Day of God's and the Lamb's Wrath", according to Jesus, occur "in the days immediately after the great tribulation". See Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

Since that is so, the 7th Seal must also occur "after great tribulation"!
The 7th Trumpet cannot begin "before midtrib" because "time shall be
no longer (future tense) and the mystery of God was finished (past tense) in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"!!
Rev.10:6-7. The Prayers of the Saints (including Martyrs of the great
Tribulation) go up before God also AFTER they come out of the great
Tribulation!!!

Seal Six is not an act of Vengeance; but produces the Verdict of the Angel of fire by which the 7th Trumpet angel is authorized to proclaim: "The Kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; that He will reign forever"; and the 24 elders add that "Almighty God has taken His great power and has begun to reign"! Rev.11:15-17.

Christ does not begin to reign at Midtrib, but "in the days after the 1260-days of chronos-time have ended; and that 7th Trumpet is also after the Two Prophets finish their task of demonstrating God's Kingdom Power and Christ's authority" during the same 1260 days!! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:3-7.

You may indeed wonder why all seven Angels prepare to sound their trumpets before the Angel of Fire even offers up the Prayers of the Saints for God to "avenge their blood"!!!

This is the occasion for the first "flashback" in which only six of the seven Trumpet Judgments are described (Rev.8:6 to Rev.9:21) because the armies of the 6th Trumpet are already "gathered to Armageddon" after killing a third of mankind! The 7th Angel only apparently does not sound his trumpet after the other Six...nor immediately after the Verdict of the Angel of Fire in the 7th Seal!! I am suggesting the 7th immediately sounds because Christ has not yet been proclaimed as King...but must be so declared before He proceeds to "destroy the destroyers of earth" as dictated by its announcement that "God's wrath has come"!!!

The Storm Theophany after Seal 7, Trump 7 and Plague 7 is a rapid-fire
escalation of the heat of God's anger which was "exhausted" as of the last Plague ("thumos was completed"; not orgay; it is past tense; Rev;.15:1)!The "flashback" from Rev.15:5 to Rev.7:9 begins the Drama in the Temple
...but only after the "last Plague empties in the air and the smoke of God's glory and power" clears for the Three-Act Drama!! Rev.15:8. The 7th Plague empties before Seals 6 and 7 open; but the "voices, thunders, lightnings, thunders and quake" begin at Seal 7; and then the "voices, lightnings, thunders, quake and great hail" result from the evidence displayed for about a half hour by a review of six Trumpet Judgments!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

mel,

The "placement" of the "signs of the Day of God's and the Lamb's Wrath", according to Jesus, occur "in the days immediately after the great tribulation". See Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

You assume that those "signs" in Rev 6:13-14 describe the same event as the Mk 13:24-27 and Mt 24:29-31. But it ain't so.

Consider: Is the "darkness" in Rev 8:12 the same one as in Rev 16:10? No. I don't think you would say they are and I certainly don't believe they are. They look SIMILAR but are not the same. This is just an example of how looking for "signs" before their times can get you into trouble. Do you believe that AC in Rev 6:2 will APPEAR like Christ will in Rev 19:11? Absolutely! Again, a sign that was meant to comfort the faithful fools the lost. 2Thes 2 shows that the deception of "signs and wonders" will be a hallmark of AC's revelation! Keep things in their proper TIMEframe. The 6th seal DEFINITELY comes before midtrib!

Since that is so, the 7th Seal must also occur "after great tribulation"!
The 7th Trumpet cannot begin "before midtrib"...

Do you agree that the 7th seal encompasses all the trumpets and all the bowls?? That is -- when the 7th seal is opened, 7 trumpets are the result before the 7th seal is complete? when the 7th trumpet is sounded, 7 bowls pour forth before the 7th trumpet is complete? This is the thought of many eschatologists -- that the 7th judgments finish all at one time, Rev 16:18-21. So you are part right and part wrong.

Consider also: The 5-6-7 trumpets coicide with 1-2-3 woes. The 1st woe allows AC to be indwelt by the "beast from the abyss." The 2nd woe causes the West and East halves of the Roman Empire (angels of the Euphrates) to reunite. The 3rd woe {"Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea") is Satan cast down to earth, Rev 12:12. All these are pre-Rev 13 -- pre-midtrib, mel. You cannot serious tell me that the beast emerges from the abyss in a 5th trumpet that occurs when the great tribulation is ending now can you?? Or that Babylon is not a reunified Roman and then world empire only near the end of the great tribulation, can you? The 3rd woe in Rev 12:12 is the last woe in Revelation. You can't tell me that Satan is cast out of heaven only at the end of the GT, can you?

Let me get to Ed's post and see what he says. Back in a few.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I'm just personally glad to know that some folks have most, if not all of 'Revelation' all figured out.

I just ain't got that far yet. And comes from someone, namely yours truly, who has been privileged??? to sit through a verse by verse or chapter by chapter study in the book by six -count 'em, six, different pastors, been through 'Revelation' twice in SS class, as we have used the book series for several years, including teaching some of it a few times, in the absence of the pastor and one times teaching it as the SS teacher, had a three hour college course on Daniel/Revelation, interned the same course as a grad student, working toward a grad degree, including preparing outlines of both books, (with the outcome of this that the School President would not let me teach the class in his absence, as was the normal procedure, because I did not always agree with everything he believed about it, and would not agree, in advance, to let him basically dictate what I might say, although that was never stated openly). I've also read it from beginning to end two other times, merely to get a POV that might not be dictated by something I might have gotten from someone else, here, as well.

And guess what?? I've still got at least three questions about the book of Revelation! :tongue3:

Ed

Ed, you're not alone -- that's for sure!! :laugh: And your pastor probably wouldn't like my POV either. I see the horses as 1) false Christianity, 2) Islam, 3) communist Russia, and 4) Israel (the prince, king of the south, king of the north - Dan 11:40 - all converging on Israel, the one who made the pact with "Death and hell, Isa 28:15). The world divided along idealogical lines in the ultimate war of flesh with spirit!!

The trumpets are Satan's takeover of the world -- the thunders are his plagues against the world -- the bowls are like God telling Pharoah to "let My people go" back to Jerusalem where the final battle is fought between Good and evil!!

We can actually discuss this on another thread if you think you'd like to hear yet another POV.

skypair

 

[skypair]

mel,

"Three act drama" is definitely an interpretation of the literal, right? I could write a book(s) like the "Left Behind" series on interpretations but you do realize how bogus that series was in many respects, don't you?

What I am saying is don't try to write your own "drama" by sewing together disparate verses. I can see your intent of glorifying God clearly in this -- I just can't relate it to the orderly, chronological account the John gives. raying:

Looking at the 2 witnesses as preaching in the same 1260 days that Christ is reigning -- that makes no sense to me.

Maybe it's me. I think The Revelation is simpler than that. What is wrong with the way I have presented it?

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair:
_______________________________________________________________________
You (Mel) assume that those "signs" in Rev 6:13-14 describe the same event as the Mk 13:24-27 and Mt 24:29-31. But it ain't so.
___________________________________________________________________
My response:
If it is correct for you to NOT accept the view that the “signs of Seal 6 occur “in the
days immediately after the great tribulation” and that Jesus placed the signs of Mark
13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31 and Luke 21:25-36 on the SAME 12-Hour Day of His
2nd coming…then you have won the argument between us! I do not concede you
have given the slightest evidence to support your view that the signs of Seal Six do
NOT occur on the Day Christ returns!! Out of deference for your convictions, I will
not belabor you or seek to change your mind!!!

Skypair:
________________________________________________________________________
Do you agree that the 7th seal encompasses all the trumpets and all the bowls?? That is -- when the 7th seal is opened, 7 trumpets are the result before the 7th seal is complete? When the 7th trumpet is sounded, 7 bowls pour forth before the 7th trumpet is complete? This is the thought of many eschatologists -- that the 7th judgments finish all at one time, Rev 16:18-21. So you are part right and part wrong”.
_____________________________________________________________________
My Response:
No, my friend, I do not think the 7th Seal contains ANY of the Trumpets; but that the contents of the inner SCROLL with the 7 Seals contains all seven Trumpet Judgments and that, when the 7th Seal opens, the contents of six seals go on “display” for about a half hour before the 7th Angel sounds his Trumpet! The Armies that kill a third of mankind have already done so since the Signs of Seal 6 continue while six Trumpet Judgments give the evidence needed by the 7th Trumpet Angel to proclaim “the Kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of the Lord and of His Christ”!! Because “God’s wrath has come” on the Day of Seal 6 and as of the Hour of the 7th Trumpet…”in the days after time is no longer and God’s mystery was finished”!!! (Was finished; Past Tense "in the days Trump 7 is about to sound"; Rev.10:6-7).

Skypair:
______________________________________________________________________
Looking At the 2 witnesses preaching in the same 1260 days that Christ is reigning
-- that makes no sense to me. The prayers of the saints have NOTHING
that I can see to do with the tabernacle in heaven. Where do you see that in Rev 8:5. We see "thunders, lightnings..." in Rev 16:18 like in Rev 8:5 because Rev 16 is where ALL the 7th judgments are completed!!
_______________________________________________________________
My Response:
We see the Saints at the ALTAR of the Temple in Seal 7! It makes sense to me because the appointed time “God’s Kingdom and Christ’s Authority comes in Power” occurs through the Two Witnesses for 1260 days until they are killed by
the Beast and “Chronos-time” ends with 3½ days or more of delay remaining!! Rev.12:10. They rise up to heaven on the Last Day and the 7th Trumpet sounds that “God’s Wrath has Come and the appointed Kairos-Time for the three R’s...Resurrection, Rewards to the Saints and Retribution to those destroying the earth”!!! Rev.11:18.

Continue next post.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair:
________________________________________________________________________
Isn't Rev 20:4 on earth?? I don't see the gathering to heaven of the wheat. Mt 13 merely says "into My barn." To me, that is into the MK on earth. And yes, for Israel, the MK is the "1000 year Reward." But where is the church
in your scenario??
_________________________________________________________________________
My Response:
Those souls sitting on thrones to Judge in Rev.20:4 is a flashback to the 7th Seal
where their prayers were presented after the half-hour review of the Six Trumpet Judgments authorizes the Angel of Fire’s Verdict and the 7th Angel’s proclamation
of Christ as King of kings! There is no “gathering of the Martyrs" to the Millennial Kingdom for they are special Church Saints who win the highest possible reward
offered to the Church in Rev.3:12!! Their bodies are gathered by Jesus “from
earth to heaven and He sends the angels to complete their gathering to the
Synagogue above” where they will receive the reward!!! ("Jesus brings rewards for
every Believer when He comes in glory. 2 Thess.2:1; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12).

Skypair:
_________________________________________________________________________
If you read closely Rev 14, I think you will see that the angels reap the
earth gathering wheat and tares. Then Christ gathers the grapes of wrath
there next. Isn't that the order? Jews/wheat and their spineless false Jews/tares then the Gentile armies of AC? "Overripe grapes among the
tares" is your invention, right?
_________________________________________________________________________
My Response;
Except for the 144,000, the Jews don't get reaped at all because "ALL Israel will be saved on that Day"...but saved too late to be part of the Lamb's Bride! There are
two that hold a “sharp cycle” during the reaping process: The Son of Man who
“reaps the earth” and an angel who is told by the Angel of Fire to “collect” the over-
ripe grapes of the vine and cast them into the winepress after already being reaped (symbolically)!! This reaping occurs as the Son of Man is taking the Firstfruit
“redeemed from earth; from among men” on the Lastday to present Him to the
Ancient of Days and be crowned King of the earth!!! Rev.14:1-5; Dan.7:13-14.

On His way to Heaven, "coming on the clouds to the Ancient of Days" (Dan.7:13),
the Son of Man stops on a white cloud to “reap the earth” and the angels “collect”
them to the Winepress of God’s great anger! (Thumos; not Orgay; Rev.14:14-19).
They will be trodden later since Rev.14:20 anticipates the treading of the Winepress
by Christ in "anger plus wrath" five chapters later in Rev.19:15!! That's the only
time He comes in great glory to "reward every believer"!!! Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

Skypair:
_________________________________________________________________________
Those in Rev 15 and the 144,000 endure the GT and enter the Millennial
Kingdom (MK), the 144,000 being sealed FIRST ("firstfruit") and the remnant
being sealed during the MK.
_____________________________________________________________________
My Response:
Yes, they survive the GT because the Two Prophets will “feed and protect them” for 1260 days after they flee into the desert! They are taken to
heaven as the “Firstfruit of the End of the Age Harvest” of Believers!! They
will know they must gather to Mt. Zion “in the days after the Two Prophets
are killed…to be sealed with the Lamb’s name (while the 4 winds of Seal Six
are held back) and to be “redeemed from earth and from among men as the
Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb”!!! (Rev.7:1-8 immediately precedes Rev.
14:1-5 and anticipates the singing of two songs in Rev.15:1-4 before the
Martyrs and 144,000 enter the Temple to praise God and the Lamb; for the
144,000 "follow the Lamb wherever He goes").

I see a complete impasse between us here because we cannot agree that
Jesus meant “All these things happenS” on the Day He Comes “FOR and
WITH all the Saints”! Paul teaches twice in I Thess. that we should be
worthy of Jesus Christ when He comes WITH all the Saints!! I Thess.3:13;
I Thess.5:23. He also twice repeats that we must be “worthy” of Christ on
the Day of His coming to “deliver every believer who believes (because of
Paul's Gospel) and in flaming fire to render Vengeance by destroying all who disobey the Gospel”!!! 2 Thess.1:5-11.

Thanks for the Exchange of Views.


Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

mel,

Yeah, impass is the right word. I've been able to diagram most everone else's timeline -- prewrath, postrib, amil, preterist. Yours is way too complicated.

au revoir, mon ami!

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

I am not surprised my "timeline is too complicated" for some. The idea has been implanted in the minds of Christians that God's wrath begins prior to the Day Christ comes in judgment. Bible translators adopted Plato's philosophy that "anger should never be attributed to God" and that view has continued to the present. We have the general view of a God whose wrath begins before Christ comes. That has given rise to the "complication" in undertstanding the time to "avenge God's elect".

Another view leading to complication comes from not distinguishing between "waiting for the End and watching" for Christ's very sudden appearace. Darby's Bible (1890) and the RSV (1946), and subsequent English versions, changed Rev.10:6 to read: “delay shall be no longer" from “time shall be no longer”! The point at which there "shall be no more delay" is ambiguous by changing the word for "time" to "delay"!! The "Chronos-time for waiting no longer" differs from "Delay no longer"!!!

The Greek words for “delay” are (1) anabole (Strong’s #311; Acts 25:17; "to put off"); (2) okneo (#3635; Acts 9:38; "hesitate"); and (3) Chronizw, (#5549; Heb. 10:37; "take time"; from Chronos; #5550). Chronos, "space of time", must be distinguished from Kairos, #2540, which refers to a fixed time and comes only at the 7th Trumpet!

The New Jerusalem (Catholic) Bible has the rendering: “The time of waiting is over”! Paul teaches that we are “waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”!I Cor.1:7. But “delay” suggests we may stop “waiting” for any fixed events to continue to occur after “time shall no longer” be subject to the countdown of 1260 Chronos-days!!!

Day #1260 is not the End! Jesus urges Believers to “watch and stay clothed” as armies gather in the plains of Armageddon! Rev.16:15-16. Waiting for specific signs to occur and for Christ to execute God's wrath does not cease; nor does the end of Chronos-Time erase the need for “watching”!! “Chronos-time shall be no longer (only) when God’s mystery was finished (past tense) in the DAYS whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound” (present tense)!!! Rev.10:6-7.

The end of Chronos-Time anticipates up to 3½ days remaining until the Kairos-time appointed for Christ's Coronation, for God's wrath and for the Three R's waiting to be fulfilled on the "unknown last day"! Christ "begins to reign as King and comes on the Last Day...at the Kairos-time of Trump #7!! Dan.7:14; Zech.14:9; Rev.11:15-17. With the Two Witnesses killed, up to 3½ or more days of watching remain while waiting for:

1. The Prophets to ascend to heaven on the last day after the qreat Quake. 2. The last martyr to be killed who must be killed. Rev.6:9-11. 3. Armies to finish gathering to Armageddon while we WATCH. Rev.16:14-16. 4. The Panorama in the heavens on the last day while the saints WATCH. 5. 144,000 Jews sealed as 4 winds are held back. Rev.7:1-8; Rev.14:1-5. 6. Giant Tsunamis to move islands. Luke 21:25; Rev.6:14;16:20. 7. The Three-Act Temple Drama to be fulfilled in just hours on the last day. 8. Announcement of God's wrath that concludes Act 3 of the Temple Drama. 9. Rejoicing in Heaven (Rev.18:20 to Rev.19:10) because the Hour of wrath and appointed (kairos) time "has come" for the three R's’; for the Wedding of the Lamb which "has come" and for Heaven to open for Christ to descend. 10. The Believers’ "any-moment" Rapture while continuing to WATCH!!!

Using "delay" is OK if we see the difference between "wait" and "watch"! Saints "wait" for the killing of the Two Prophets but "watch" for them to be raised up; watch for the rescue of the 144,000 from Mt. Zion; for the complete gathering of the wicked to Armageddon and for the Presence of Messiah!! But the Jews "stand erect, look up at the Sign of His Presence and keep praying to escape all the things that happens on that Day because they will "know their redemption and kingdom are near"!!! Luke 17:27-30; Luke 21:25-36.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

mel,

I am not surprised my "timeline is too complicated" for some. The idea has been implanted in the minds of Christians that God's wrath begins prior to the Day Christ comes in judgment. Bible translators adopted Plato's philosophy that "anger should never be attributed to God" and that view has continued to the present. We have the general view of a God whose wrath begins before Christ comes. That has given rise to the "complication" in undertstanding the time to "avenge God's elect".

Naw -- I'm not buying that. For one, all translations are not merely intepretations. And even Augustine, in his interpretations, had Socrates more in mind than Plato.

For another, few here cite the Bibles you appear to frame as "tainted."

However, your "confession" does tell me that you don't take the Bible "straight up!" Tells me that you translate and then interpret every bit as much as those you just condemned. To put it frankly -- when you compare 2 passages (or more) that may or may not be connected, you are interpretting scripture. When you make decisions about which definitions of words you will use, you are interpretting scripture.

Here's a verse that might help you in your future studies: 2Tim 2:14 -- "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." This verse anticipated Clinton's "is" subversion and all others who would parse the word rather than admit that meaning is subject to the context.

If you will recall, it was in the OT that the "letter" was observed, often to much confusion within Judaism (i.e. the Pharisees). In the NT, it is the Spirit that we teach, not the letter. That is, the words say what the context says they say. Translators didn't throw away whole manuscripts because they got one word or one letter (one "jot or tittle") wrong. Why? Because "context is king."

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel,

I am not surprised my "timeline is too complicated" for some. The idea has been implanted in the minds of Christians that God's wrath begins prior to the Day Christ comes in judgment. Bible translators adopted Plato's philosophy that "anger should never be attributed to God" and that view has continued to the present. We have the general view of a God whose wrath begins before Christ comes. That has given rise to "complication" in undertstanding the time to "avenge God's elect".
_____________________________________________________________
Skypair:
Naw -- I'm not buying that. For one, all translations are not merely intepretations. And even Augustine, in his interpretations, had Socrates more in mind than Plato. For another, few here cite the Bibles you appear to frame as "tainted."
_____________________________________________________________
My Response:
When two people discuss a subject, in this case the time for God's wrath
to "avenge the blood of the martyrs coming out of great tribulation", each
person should use the Scripture to counter the interpretation presented by the other person!

What Scripture will you cite to counter the fact that God's wrath waits until the "last one who must be killed shall be killed before God avenges all those beheaded for refusing to worship the Beast"? Rev.20:4; Rev.6:9-11; Rev.7:9-14. Does God exclude this countless number of martyrs out of all nations from the Bride of Christ?? Are they not are dressed in white robes and are they not "washed in the Lamb's blood"??? Rev.7:14.

During the Plagues, Beast-Worshipers "shed the blood of the Martyrs who come out of the great tribulation" before God's wrath destroys them all!
Plagues demonstrate that God's patience has not yet been exhausted; but that His deeds are holy and just!! God's wrath is not announced as "having come" until God's Mystery was finished...with the unknown Day of Wrath being "one of the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"!!! Rev.10:6-7.
Look Further at the Context:

Prior to the victory song of Moses sung by the Martyrs, before they enter the Temple in heaven for its Three-Act Drama (Rev.15:1-5), the only two references to what will have been "completed" must be considered!

ONE: "God's Mystery was completed" when the Two Prophets were killed "in the days before the 7th Trumpet sounds that God's wrath has come"! They rise up "after 3 1/2 days in the hour of the great quake" with the armies of the 6th Trumpet invading Israel after killing a third of mankind!! God's wrath must therefore be announced after "time is no longer and God's mystery was finished" and the Temple was open as of Rev.15:5!!!

TWO: The martyrs sing their victorious song of Moses after the Plagues had completed God's patience (Thumos; not Orgay; past tense)! Every
Saint whose blood was shed during the last Plagues (Rev.16:6) will
"stand on a river/sea mixed with fire while God sits on a blazing Throne before the Court sits to Judge the Beast!! Rev.15:1-4; Dan.7:9-10. If Bible Translators since the Vulgate had translated the Greek for "long-
anger" (makrothumia; patience;#3115) as "patience" instead of "long- suffering", they could have realized what modern Catholic Bibles reveal: "The Plagues had exhausted God's anger"!!! Rev.15:1 (past tense).

Modern Bible Translations reflect the view of Plato that "God cannot be affected by the perturbations of human anger"! Augustine embraced the
"tradition of men" that God is too high and exalted to be swayed by such
changes of mood!! So the KJV misleadingly translates Thumos as "wrath"; and never once translates this word as "anger"; not even in verses that include both of these words: thumos (anger) and orgay (wrath)!!!
____________________________________________________________
Skypair's Judgment:
However, your "confession" does tell me that you don't take the Bible "straight up!" Tells me that you translate and then interpret every bit as much as those you just condemned. Here's a verse that might help you in future studies: 2Tim 2:14 -- "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." This verse anticipated Clinton's "is" subversion and all others who would parse the word rather than admit that meaning is subject to the context. skypair

_____________________________________________________________
My Reply:
The entire context of Revelation is that "no believer suffers God's wrath"; all the martyrs must be killed before God avenges their blood; the Plagues first "demonstrate God's deeds are just and holy"; the 7 Plagues must "complete God's longsuffering patience and the Mystery of God must be finished" before the 7th Trumpet sounds that His "wrath has come"...as well as the appointed (kairos) time for Resurrection, Rewards to Saints and Retribution on those "destroying the earth"! Rev.11:18.

The "grapes of the vine" part of the earth, reaped at Armageddon, must be gathered first in order to be "collected symbolically by the angels to the winepress" before Christ and the angels "gather (verb episunago) the elect to safety "unto Jesus at the Synagogue" (noun episungog) in the sky!! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

Context? Yes, indeed, for this is the context in which Jesus says: "Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who is WATCHING; keeping his garments,
lest he walk naked and they see his shame"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net