Seeking to Understand Revelation

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

Praise and Prayers of the Saints

In Revelation the praise of the Saints always precedes answers to their prayers. At the first mention of Saints, they praise God because the Lamb has redeemed them by His blood from every people and nation and their destiny is to reign on the earth! At the 2nd reference to Saints, after they praise God and the Lamb and the Lamb opens Seal 7, their prayers are presented to God by the Angel of Fire from the Altar in the Temple and he renders the Verdict of Judgment; “casting fire off the Altar to earth”!!! Rev.5:8-10; Rev.8:1-5.

Prior to their prayers in the Temple, although referenced later in Rev.15:1-4, the Martyrs praise God while He sits on His throne over a sea of glass mixed with fire symbolizing His anger. That’s when the Temple opens for all those coming out of great tribulation to praise both God and the Lamb for their salvation. Rev.15:5; Rev.7:9-14. Then the Lamb opens Seal 7 so the Angel of Fire may present their prayers to God from the Altar in the Temple.

The Saints include O.T. believers as well as believers martyred during the great tribulation! Yet Dispensationalists reject them as members of the Lamb’s Bride!! In their view they are included in the First Resurrection; but only if it takes place in two stages separated by seven years!!!

Paul teaches that “all the Saints will come with Jesus”! All the “called, elect and faithful” accompany the Lamb to destroy those gathered against Him!! I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14. But first John, in a final flashback, just before the First Resurrection, sees the “Souls of those beheaded for Christ sitting on thrones in judgment”!!! Rev.20:4.

The Court of Dan.7:22 renders judgment on the Beast after God sits on His throne ablaze with fire in Dan.7:9-10 and the Son of Man had first been presented to Him! Dan.7:13 and Rev.15:1-4. The same is true in Seal 7 where the judgment is based on a half-hour review of six angels having blown their Trumpets (they appear in verse two “out of place” for sequence to the 7th Seal) since the wicked had just killed a third of mankind and actually gathered to Armageddon!! This is the conclusion seeing how that Seal 6 opens “in the days after great tribulation, after the Two Witnesses finish their 1260-day task and whenever the smoke clears from the Temple and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound…for God’s mystery was finished”…and after the martyrs praise God and enter the Temple in heaven!!! Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29; Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:3-7; Rev.15:1-5,8; Rev.7:9-Rev.8:5.

All this occurs before the Angel sounds Trump #7! The Tribunal of Seal #7 occurs
at the Altar of the Temple with the Son of Man having already been presented to the Ancient of Days and countless multitudes out of great tribulation praise God and the Lamb!! Dan.7:13; Rev.15:1-4; Rev.7:9-14. Only at Trump #7 has the appointed
hour arrived for God’s wrath, for the Resurrection and Rewards to the Saints and for Retribution on the wicked!!!

The 1000-year reward of Rev.3:12; 9:15-17; 20:5-6 awaits the First Resurrection.
Rev.11:18.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

mel,

What Scripture will you cite to counter the fact that God's wrath waits until the "last one who must be killed shall be killed before God avenges all those beheaded for refusing to worship the Beast"? Rev.20:4; Rev.6:9-11; Rev.7:9-14.

I don't. The tribulation ends with Christ's vengeance.

Does God exclude this countless number of martyrs out of all nations from the Bride of Christ?? Are they not are dressed in white robes and are they not "washed in the Lamb's blood"??? Rev.7:14.

Yes, He does. Though ALL saints are washed by the blood, only the church has been wed to Christ at this point (re: Mt 14:1-13, the "wise virgins"). The "foolish virgins" show up after the wedding door is closed -- to late to wed Christ, mel.

So you not see that OT saints were wed to God (Cf. Jer 3:8) and that they will be taken back by God post-MK in that a "bride" (to God) and a wife (of Christ) come down in NJ, Rev 21:9??

all the martyrs must be killed before God avenges their blood;

Do you consider the bowls to be "God's vengeance?" Cause I would reply that Rev 7:16 suggests that some of the martyrs suffer under the plague of the 4th bowl, Rev 16:8-9.

The "grapes of the vine" part of the earth, reaped at Armageddon, must be gathered first in order to be "collected symbolically by the angels to the winepress"...

That's a debatable if not dubious assertion. For instance, were the seals opened in heaven before or after the event they were related to had occurred on the earth? Unless maybe I don't understand what you are saying, I'd say the heavenly scene comes first, right?

...before Christ and the angels "gather (verb episunago) the elect to safety "unto Jesus at the Synagogue" (noun episungog) in the sky!! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

Furthermore, it looks like in Rev 14:14-19 that the grapes are gathered LAST -- the grapes are NOT gathered first" as you assert above. You ARE suggesting that the first reaping (14:14-16) is of the saints to heaven, aren't you??

Again, Rev 14 is the gathering of Jews and AC's armies to Jerusalem -- nothing to do with gathering to heaven.

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //The Saints include O.T. believers as well as believers martyred during the great tribulation!//

Amen, Brother -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Mel Miller: // Yet Dispensationalists reject them as members
of the Lamb’s Bride!! In their view they are included
in the First Resurrection; but only if it takes place
in two stages separated by seven years!!!//

Anything you say about dispensationalists is probably true
of some dispensationalists and not true of others.
Recommend you stick to your beliefs, which you seem to know
very well and are real good at describing, and away from
the beliefs of various dispenstationlists
whom you don't appear to understand. As usual, the building
of strawmen is always a debate technique you are free to use.

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel Miller: //The Saints include O.T. believers as well as believers martyred during the great tribulation!//

Amen, Brother -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Mel Miller: // Yet Dispensationalists reject them as members
of the Lamb’s Bride!! In their view they are included
in the First Resurrection; but only if it takes place
in two stages separated by seven years!!!//

Anything you say about dispensationalists is probably true
of some dispensationalists and not true of others.
Recommend you stick to your beliefs, which you seem to know
very well and are real good at describing, and away from
the beliefs of various dispenstationlists whom you don't appear to understand. As usual, the building of strawmen is always a debate technique you are free to use.

_____________________________________________________

Ed,
Sorry, but 99 percent of Dispensationalists separate the stages to the first Resurrection by a matter of years! I am not "building a strawman" because I was raised as a Dispensationalist!! At least I don't employ the technique of interpreting the word "day" to mean "days" and "after the tribulation" to mean "before the tribulation"!!!

Mel

 

[Mel Miller]

Quote from Mel:

"All the martyrs must be killed before God avenges their blood".

Skypair's Question:
Do you consider the bowls to be "God's vengeance?" Cause I would reply that Rev 7:16 suggests that some of the martyrs suffer under the plague of the 4th bowl, Rev 16:8-9.

Mel's reply: How can the Bowls be acts of Vengeance when God's Vengeance occurs only "on the Day Christ comes to deliver believers and in flaming fire destroys those who disobey the Gospel and refuse to repent" up to the last Plague and last martyr's death ? 2 Thess.1:8-10.

Mel's Quote and reply to Skypair:
The "grapes of the vine" part of the earth, reaped at Armageddon, must be gathered first in order to be "collected symbolically by the angels to the winepress"...
My friend, why is that a debatable question?! The scene in Rev.14 occurs on the Lastday, after armies gather to Armageddon; and the reaping from the white cloud is symoblic, not literal!! The reaping of the wicked by the Son of Man occurs before He is crowned King of kings and descends from heaven to literally gather the elect from earth to His very Presence!!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

Mel's Quote and Reply to Skypair:

The "grapes of the vine" part of the earth, reaped at Armageddon, must be literally gathered first to Armageddon in order to be "collected symbolically by the angels to the winepress"...before Christ and the angels "gather (verb episunago) the elect to safety "unto Jesus at the Synagogue" (noun episungog) in the sky!! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

Skypair wrote that the grapes are gathered LAST! They gather first on earth to the area called the "winepress" before the Son of Man reaps the earth symbolically and the angels "collect" the grapes to that winepress!! After the Panoramic events in heaven on that same day, Christ "treads them in anger and wrath"! Rev.14:20; Rev.19:15.

I did not deny the grapes are gathered first; but only "collected" first to the winepress after the earth is reaped symbolically by the Son of Man! "I am not suggesting the reaping (14:14-16) includes the Saints to heaven"!! NO, the Saints are literally reaped when Christ appears "on one of the days immediately after great tribulation" ...
within an Hour or so after the Son of Man symbolically reaps the earth!!! Mk.13:24; Mt.24:29.

Skypair concludes:
"Again, Rev 14 is the gathering of Jews and AC's armies to Jerusalem -- nothing to do with gathering to heaven".

Here, at last, I agree with you if you see Rev.14 as a symbolic reaping by the Son of Man and an immediate follow-up "collecting" of the grapes of wrath into the winepress of the literal area called Armageddon!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

Quote from Mel:

Mel's reply: How can the Bowls be acts of Vengeance when God's Vengeance occurs only "on the Day Christ comes to deliver believers and in flaming fire destroys those who disobey the Gospel and refuse to repent" up to the last Plague and last martyr's death ? 2 Thess.1:8-10..

Oh, I don't know -- does the "7 bowls of God's wrath" mean anything? Doesn't God's wrath = God's vengeance? 2Thes 1:8-10 looks at Jesus vengeance, right?

Skypair concludes:
"Again, Rev 14 is the gathering of Jews and AC's armies to Jerusalem -- nothing to do with gathering to heaven".

Here, at last, I agree with you if you see Rev.14 as a symbolic reaping by the Son of Man and an immediate follow-up "collecting" of the grapes of wrath into the winepress of the literal area called Armageddon!

Good on ya, mate! What does the "Son of man" reap?

Still gotta say that the rapture is pretrib, though.

As you highlight in your post to ed, you still cannot distiguish between Israel and church, can you?

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

Paul teaches that “all the Saints will come with Jesus”! All the “called, elect and faithful” accompany the Lamb to destroy those gathered against Him!! I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

I think you are reading into this a couple of things, one that the overall testimony of Scripture simply does not support, and a second that is assumed as opposed to being declared, as you happen to disagree with at least some of those dispensationalisits. The first is that most "pre-trib" dispensationalists see a difference between Jesus "coming for His saints" in the rapture and coming "with His saints". I agree there is a difference.
The second is maybe 'over'-reading into I Thess. 3:13. Even under your proposed scenario the "all saints" argument would seem to lack Scriptural support, for it has no place for the so-called Millenium saints. If they are saints, they, by your reasoning, would be included in this one-size-fits-all crowd. How can that be? They would not have even been born yet. The literary usage of all does not 'automatically' include every single person who might fit that category, but can be limited by other things, in this case, the body of Christ, perhaps. Paul also writes of "all the saints" at least three places (II Cor. 13:13; Phil'p 4:22; Col. 1:4). And there are other places where a generic 'ALL' is used figuratively, as opposed to a 'count.' I submit that that is what is in view in I Thess. 3:13.

Ed

(t'other Ed) AND as always, two 'Eds are better than one.) :thumbsup: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Mel Miller]

Oh, I don't know -- does the "7 bowls of God's wrath" mean anything? Doesn't God's wrath = God's vengeance? 2Thes 1:8-10 looks at Jesus vengeance, right?

Good on ya, mate! What does the "Son of man" reap?

Still gotta say that the rapture is pretrib, though.

As you highlight in your post to ed, you still cannot distiguish between Israel and church, can you?

skypair

____________________________________________________________

Skypair,
Indeed, you are diligent about the Pre-Trib hope. But "Bowls of Wrath"?

Now we are at the nitty-gritty, the practical details of the word "thumos"!
The Bowls cannot "complete God's wrath" since God's "anger and wrath"
follow the Bowls and result in total destruction of those who refuse to
repent under the judgments of God's anger (thumos) in six Bowls!! God's
anger (thumos; patience; long-suffering anger) was "completed, yes, was exhausted in the 7 last Plagues; but not His wrath (orgay)!!!

God's longsuffering anger (forbearance; patience; absence of wrath) continues until the last martyr is killed and God decrees "It is Done" and
then the 7th Plague remains suspended in the air for the Temple Drama!

It remains suspended during the 3-Act Temple Drama since God's anger "mixes full strength in the Cup of Wrath" only AFTER the Court of Dan.7 and Seal 7 sits! In Seal 7 the Court reviews the rebellious character of those who have just killed a third of mankind...as of the 6th Trumpet!!They are declared guilty before God while they stand incarcerated; not yet "trodden in anger and wrath" (but reaped from earth and cast into the winepress of God's great anger")!!! Rev.8:1-5; Dan.7:22; Rev.14:20 waits upon Rev.19:15.

The truth that God's patience continues to the last day is not in your spiritual vocabulary! Your view is enslaved within the "tradition of men" that the Last Bowl Plagues "exhaust God's wrath"!! The Vulgate, the first Catholic Bible hid the "tradition" handed down from Plato that God cannot be made subject to human "anger" (thumos)!!!

The Catholic Bible finally recognizes thumos means anger; not wrath!

Transliterating the Greek, "long-anger", to the Latin, "long-suffering," hides the meaning of "anger" because of the "tradition of men" as they did in Col.2:8! Here anger was switched with wrath and wrath with anger!! See Col.3:8. Finally, the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible makes the needed correction by translating correctly: "The Plagues exhaust God's anger "!!! Rev.15:1.

When the Martyrs first come out from under the Temple Altar they praise
God with the Song of Moses as they stand on a crystal sea mixed with fire and He sits on His throne symbolically "ablaze with that fire"! Rev.15:1-4; Dan.7:9-10. At Revelation's only great and wonderful sign, they declare that God's anger had been "completed (exhuasted) and His righteous deeds had been manifested" (past tense)!! Just as the angel of the Altar between the 4th and 5th Plagues had also revealed!!! Rev.15:1,4; Rev.16:7.

Then the Temple opens for the 3-Act Temple Drama with "after these things, I looked and behold..." in both references! Rev.15:5; Rev.7:9.
The phrase containing the Storm Theophany concludes Seal 7, Trump 7 and Plague 7 in quick succession!! It repeats over and over and the 7th Plague all of a sudden implodes with the Cup having mixed God's anger with His wrath!!! Rev.8:5; Rev.11:19; Rev.16:18-21.

My friend, as for a distinction between Israel and the Church, both "Eds"
have yet to discern that "all Israel will be saved" only when Jesus appears and they "mourn and beg to escape God's wrath and to prevail to stand
before the Son of Man"! Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; Rev.1:7. This occurs on "the DAY Christ comes in vengeance to deliver every believer (who believes Paul's Gospel) and also comes in flaming fire to destroy those who are destroying the earth...because God's wrath has come"!! Rev.11:18; 2 Thess.1:8-10. Among those who suddenly come to "admire" Jesus on that Day will be millions of Ishmael's descendants who will be "kept alive" if they are "willing to die"!!! Luke 17:30-33.

We haven't even gotten to the glorious future of Israel who will be the
means of winning (sheep) nations to Christ for 1000 years while the "Church rules over Gentile nations with an iron rod" and while the Martyrs "serve God as pillars in heaven's Temple and serve Christ for 1000 years"! Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

mel,

Fascinating! I'm aghast!

How do you have the souls from under the altar in Rev 6:9 as the ones entering the tabernacle in Rev 15 singing the song of Moses?? Mel, there are "subsets" of saints seen in heaven according to 1) when they arrived or 2) who they represent. That is, they all aren't the same folks. In particular, I believe the Rev 6:9 saints are martyred church trib converts. They DON'T wave palms as to their king and they DON'T sing the song of Moses before the throne. They were "salin for the word of God and for their testimony." And Who did John know the "word of God" as? Jesus, right? And their vrebalizations are for vengeance.

Then I am truly amazed how you turn the words "then shall all Israel be saved" to mean the church! Rom 9-11 is all about Paul's "kin" -- the Jews! Not one breath away from this declaration, Paul says that the "fulness of the Gentiles will be come in." Does that not at some level speak to a distinction between the Gentiles in this end times plan and Israel, the Jews??

Try considering Israel in Rom 9-11 to be the Jews, Paul's people, and see what you come up with.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

mel,

Fascinating! I'm aghast!

How do you have the souls from under the altar in Rev 6:9 as the ones entering the tabernacle in Rev 15 singing the song of Moses??

In particular, I believe the Rev 6:9 saints are martyred church trib converts. They DON'T wave palms as to their king and they DON'T sing the song of Moses before the throne. They were "slain for the word of God and for their testimony." And Who did John know the "word of God" as? Jesus, right? And their vrebalizations are for vengeance.

Then I am truly amazed how you turn the words "then shall all Israel be saved" to mean the church! Rom 9-11 is all about Paul's "kin" -- the Jews! Not one breath away from this declaration, Paul says that the "fulness of the Gentiles will be come in." Does that not at some level speak to a distinction between the Gentiles in this end times plan and Israel, the Jews??

Try considering Israel in Rom 9-11 to be the Jews, Paul's people, and see what you come up with.

skypair

______________________________________________________________

Friend, I must say you exhibit poor discernment of what I wrote! I clearly distinguish "all of Israel being saved" so as to win the nations during the Millennium from the Church while we reign over the nations!! Rev.2:26-27.
I have stated over and over that "Israel will be saved after Christ appears
with ALL the Saints"!!! [What makes you think that I meant Israelis are the Church???]

How do I find the souls from under the altar in Rev 6:9 entering the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in Rev 15 singing the song of Moses? John uses Rev.15 and 16 as one of five major Flashback passages to reveal all the events that take place before the Martyrs enter the Temple in Rev.7: 9-14! The Events within the Temple do not/cannot take place on the last day until the last Plague empties in the air and the smoke clears from the Temple!! Rev.15:8. The description of the seven last Plagues is PART of that Flashback...even though they seem to occur after the Martyrs enter the Temple as of Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9!!!

I will gladly give the definitive proof for this statement; but only if you are open-minded to the truth! The fact that the Martyrs appear before God on a crystal sea mixed with fire (as in Dan.7 where the Beast is judged and destroyed as a result of the Court sitting in judgment) requires that
they come out from under the Altar!! The fact that the only great and wonderful sign in heaven reveals the Plagues had "exhausted God's anger"
(His long-suffering patience) when the Martyrs sing their song of victory shows, without denial, that it's time for the "nations to worship God"!!!

That's the conclusion to their song and signals the immediate opening of the Temple for the Three-Act Drama which climaxes in the "open Temple"!
"The Ark of the Covenant is seen" as representative of the time for Israel to be redeemed and to take the Kingdom!! Rev.11:19; Luke 21:28,31. With that climactic scene, the Angel of the 7th Trumpet proclaims: "God's wrath has come and the appointed (kairos) time" for the 3 R's: Resurrection and Rewards for the "saints and prophets" and Retribution
to those who are gathered to Armagaddon set on destroying the earth!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[skypair]

______________________________________________________________

Friend, I must say you exhibit poor discernment of what I wrote! I clearly distinguish "all of Israel being saved" so as to win the nations during the Millennium from the Church while we reign over the nations!! Rev.2:26-27.
I have stated over and over that "Israel will be saved after Christ appears
with ALL the Saints"!!! [What makes you think that I meant Israelis are the Church???]

Sorry, mel. I never thought of all Israel being saved AFTER the MK. Very curious that "the times of the Gentiles" are not fulfilled until then.

How do I find the souls from under the altar in Rev 6:9 entering the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in Rev 15 singing the song of Moses? John uses Rev.15 and 16 as one of five major Flashback passages to reveal all the events that take place before the Martyrs enter the Temple in Rev.7: 9-14!

Ah! So you flashback from events that are happening in "real time" while I falshback only when events don't fit -- like the "woman" in Rev 12.

The Events within the Temple do not/cannot take place on the last day until the last Plague empties in the air and the smoke clears from the Temple!! Rev.15:8. The description of the seven last Plagues is PART of that Flashback...even though they seem to occur after the Martyrs enter the Temple as of Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9!!!

Ah, again! So you have to massage" the timing a bit there to make the events fit your timeline, eh? (re: "even though they seem to occur after the Martyrs enter the Temple") You don't suppose, do you, that you got the timeline wrong??

I will gladly give the definitive proof for this statement; but only if you are open-minded to the truth!

Now you KNOW that is just an invitation to me to believe a lie, don't you?? How about I show you the benefits of crack if you agree not to say it is wrong?

The fact that the Martyrs appear before God on a crystal sea mixed with fire (as in Dan.7 where the Beast is judged and destroyed as a result of the Court sitting in judgment) requires that they come out from under the Altar!!

How so?? Their judgment seat is Rev 20:4 -- on earth! It is NOT in the heavenly tabernacle.

The fact that the only great and wonderful sign in heaven reveals the Plagues had "exhausted God's anger" (His long-suffering patience) when the Martyrs sing their song of victory shows, without denial, that it's time for the "nations to worship God"!!!

Amen! After the 7th judgments if Rev 16:18-21, Christ returns (Rev 19) and does just that. How in the world does that bring the 5th seal martyrs to Rev 15 and 16??

That's the conclusion to their song and signals the immediate opening of the Temple for the Three-Act Drama which climaxes in the "open Temple"!
"The Ark of the Covenant is seen" as representative of the time for Israel to be redeemed and to take the Kingdom!! Rev.11:19; Luke 21:28,31.

I don't know about the "Three-Act" drama, but it IS time for Israel to be redeemed -- but this is NOT the end of the MK, is it.

With that climactic scene, the Angel of the 7th Trumpet proclaims: "God's wrath has come and the appointed (kairos) time" for the 3 R's: Resurrection and Rewards for the "saints and prophets" and Retribution to those who are gathered to Armagaddon set on destroying the earth!!!{/quote] God's wrath has come and gone hasn't it? It's now time for Christ's wrath and rewards, right? I'm a bit confused why you would say the vials/bowls don't conclude God's wrath and the return be seen as Christ's wrath/vengeance??

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Originally Posted by Mel Miller
____________________________________________________________
Friend, I must say you exhibit poor discernment of what I wrote! I clearly distinguish "all of Israel being saved" so as to win the nations during the Millennium from that of the Church ruling over the nations!! Rev.2:26-27.
I have stated over and over that "Israel will be saved after Christ appears with ALL the Saints"!!! [What makes you think that I meant Israelis are the Church???]

Sorry, mel. I never thought of all Israel being saved AFTER the MK. Very curious that "the times of the Gentiles" are not fulfilled until then.
Mel writes: Well, This keeps getting more complicated. By MK do you mean Millennial Kingdom of 1000 years? If so, then ALL Israel will be saved at the start of the MK and only at the END thereof will they “inherit it forever” along with the sheep nations. Matt.25:32-34.

You asked how do I find the souls from under the altar in Rev 6:9 entering the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in Rev 15 and singing the song of Moses? John uses Rev.15 and 16 as one of 5 major Flashback passages to reveal all the events that take place before the Martyrs enter the Temple in Rev.7: 9-14!

Skypair:Ah! So you flashback from events that are happening in "real time" while I flashback only when events don't fit -- like the "woman" in Rev 12.

Mel writes: Again,the “real-time” in question is what HAPPENS from Midweek of Daniel’s 70th Seven until THE LAST DAY! In the Seals the Endtime starting point at Midweek is at Seal Two with “peace taken from earth” until the Lastday at the Great Earthquake in Seal Six!! Rev.6:12. That day's events continue to be described until the first “flashback” to six Trumpet Judgments from Rev.8:6 to Rev. 9:21!!!

[This passage is a flashback since Seal 7’s Court convenes on the last day to “review” 6 Trumpet Judgments up to killing a third of mankind that has already occurred because Seals 6 & 7 occur “after the great tribulation”].

The description of the 7 Plagues constitute the 4th of 5 flashback passages! The last Martyr has been killed, the armies have invaded Israel, God’s mystery was already finished as of the death of the Two Witnesses, the great and wonderful sign declares the Plagues had “manifested God’s deeds were holy and true”, the Angel at the Altar in the Temple had concluded the same judgment of "deeds holy and true" between the 3rd and 4th Plagues and the 7th Trumpet is “about to sound that God’s wrath has come”…at the only appointed time in Revelation for the 3 R’s!!
Because “Chronos-time shall be no longer in the days just prior to the 7th Trumpet”, this agrees exactly with Jesus coming “in the days immediately after the great tribulation”!!! Rev.10:6-7; Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.

Mel: The Events within the Temple do not/cannot take place on the last day until the last Plague empties in the air and the smoke clears from the Temple!! Rev.15:8. The description of the 7 last Plagues is PART of that Flashback...even though they seem to occur after the Martyrs enter the Temple as of Rev.15:5 and Rev.7:9!!!
___________________________________________________________
Skypair: Ah, again! So you have to "massage" the timing a bit there to make the events fit your timeline, eh? (re: "even though they seem to occur after the Martyrs enter the Temple") You don't suppose, do you, that you got the timeline wrong??
Mel writes:
It’s not a change in timing! This flashback leads to understanding the relation of Endtime events to the climax of those events on the DAY Christ comes FOR and WITH all the Saints and to be glorified in ALL the Saints!! “He comes in flaming fire to destroy earth’s destroyers”…all who disobey the Gospel, all who refuse to repent to the last Hour!!

Mel: I will gladly give the definitive proof for this statement; but only if you are open-minded to the truth!
_____________________________________________________________
You KNOW that is an invitation to me to believe a lie, don't you? How about I show you benefits of crack if you agree not to say it is wrong?
Mel writes: No, my friend, that attitude fails to show open-mindedness.
It took many years for me to discover the definitive reasons requiring Seals 6 and 7 to open on the Last Day! This occurs after the Last Plague empties in the air to end God’s patience with the Godless!! He first allows them to kill a third of mankind and to invade Israel for the slaughter that terminates their blasphemies in the Hour of Trial when no chance if escape remains for incorrigible Beast-Worshipers!!!

Mel: The fact that the Martyrs appear before God on a crystal sea mixed with fire (as in Dan.7 where the Beast is judged and destroyed as a result of the Court sitting in judgment) requires that they come out from under the Altar!!
____________________________________________________________
Skypair: How so? Their judgment seat is Rev 20:4 - on earth! It’s NOT in heaven’s tabernacle.
Mel writes: The judgment seat on which the Martyrs sit cannot be on earth for John still sees them as “souls” clothed in white robes in Rev.20:4! They will sit on seats to Judge in the Court of Seal 7!! This verse is a final flashback I do not count as such; but it makes sense!!!

Mel: The fact that the only great and wonderful sign in heaven reveals the Plagues had "exhausted God's anger" (His long-suffering patience) when the Martyrs sing their song of victory in Rev.15 shows, without denial, that it's time for the "nations to worship God"!!!
_____________________________________________________________
Skypair: Amen! After the 7th judgment if Rev 16:18-21, Christ returns (Rev 19) and does just that. How in the world does that bring the 5th seal martyrs to Rev 15 and 16??

Mel writes: It It is logical and a sign of justice that the wicked should be judged before they are destroyed but while they are incarcerated in the “winepress of God’s great anger (thumos)”! The 5th Seal Martyrs are among those who “must be killed during the great tribulation” before God avenges their blood!! There must be no question that the wicked have been found guilty in a Court of Divine Justice!!!

That's the time for nations to worship God and is the conclusion to their song...signaling the immediate opening of the Temple for the Three-Act Drama which climaxes in the "open Temple"! Here we find "The Ark of the Covenant is seen"...representative of the time for Israel to be redeemed and to take the Kingdom!! Rev.11:19; Luke 21:28,31.
____________________________________________________________
Skypair: I don't know about the "Three-Act" drama, but it IS time for Israel to be redeemed -- but this is NOT the end of the MK, is it?

Mel: Rev.15:1-4 leads instantly to "after these things, I beheld..." for the Temple Drama from Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19 launches the Millennial Reign over the nations! Here “God begins to Reign”!! And with this climactic scene at the 7th Trumpet, the Angel proclaims: "God's wrath has come and the only (kairos) time" appointed for the 3 R's: Resurrection and Rewards for the "saints and prophets" and Retribution to those gathered to Armageddon set on destroying the earth!!!

Those who lament: “There is no escape”, when the calamities of Seal Six begin with the great earthquake, will also acknowledge: “The “DAY of God’s AND the Lamb’s wrath has come”! There is only ONE Day of Wrath!! The Bowls don’t “conclude God’s wrath” for the armies have not yet been destroyed by "God's anger and wrath" when the 7th Angel empties the Last Plague!!!

All events of 100 verses in Revelation must be fulfilled on the Last Day after the 7th Plague empties in the air! I haven’t proved this yet!! That’s my Centerpiece!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Hi Mel.

My own interpretation of Revelation views the scope of the narrative going from the time of Christ on earth to the 2nd coming, only not just once, but going over the same period of time in several descriptive repeating cycles, each cycle giving a different emphasis on the same time as the others.

You can download and read my outline from this site. It is a standard PDF file.

http://www.epud.net/~richmond/bible/amain.htm

 

[Mel Miller]

Paul,

Your outline recognizes the problem presented by the 7 Angels with the 7 Trumpets being mentioned "out of place" at Rev.8:2 instead of Rev.8:6!

You see the 7 Trumpet Judgments as an "answer to the prayers of saints"!
I see only the 7th as the answer to their prayers and that this Trumpet decrees that "God's Wrath has Come" during the 12-Hour Day that the 7th Plague empties in the air...the signal for the Lamb to open Seal 6 with its signs of the last day!! Let me suggest why the Trumpet Judgments begin at Rev.8:6 instead of Rev.8:2!!!

John sees the 7 Angels "preparing to sound" ON THE LAST DAY because they present the evidence from those Judgments that have already been committed by or upon the wicked! The evidence leads to their prayers and the Decree that God's Wrath has Come and the Appointed Time for the three R's!!

That means ALL 7 Trumpets will sound in quick succession...for "about a half hour" BEFORE God hears the prayers of the saints contained in the golden bowls held by the 24 Elders!! Rev.5:8. Only six of the 7 Trumpets are described in the first of 5 major Flashbacks...because each Flashback adds to the picture of what occurs on the Last Day!!!

The description of the 7th Trumpet occurs at the conclusion of the 2nd of 5 major Flashbacks...but also at the CLIMAX of the Three-Act Temple Drama which begins after all the Martyrs come out from under the Altar in the Temple to sing the victory song of Moses in Rev.15:1-4! They
sing before God on a crystal sea mixed with fire at the most intense moment of God's "great anger" as it is about to mix with His Wrath!! Not even the Martyrs are allowed into the Temple for the Tribunal of Seal 7 until they and the 144,000 "present the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days" and the Court of Dan.7:22 and of Seal 7 is ready to sit in Judgment!!!

The final statement in my last post is that 100 verses in Revelation reveal events to be fulfilled on the Last Day! The Martyrs are central to the entire Revelation; the Two (resurrected) Prophets are required in heaven as living "witnesses" and the 144,000 blameless Firstfruit redeemed from earth sing the song of the Lamb!! For they are "redeemed from among men to follow the Lamb wherever He goes" and substantiate the Son of Man's worthiness to "take the kingdom of earth" that very Day!!! Dan.7:13-14; Rev.14:1-5; Rev.15:3 (two songs are sung before God on the Last Day).

Paul, if you observed the "out of place" positioning of the 7 Angels based on your own study, I congratulate your finding! Not many have given notice to the problem!! And the idea that the text from Rev.8:6 to 9:21 is a "playback" of evidence displayed before the Witnesses for about a half hour on the Last Day may have been evaluated by scholars; but I'm not yet aware of it and therefore hesitate to be dogmatic!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Paul,

I would like to know just where you see the Rapture taking place in the
order of events for the second coming.

Under a thread called Post-Trib, Pre-Wath Rapture in the General Forum,
I have been presenting what I call the Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath Rapture that
includes both the Rapture and Revelation of Christ on the same day.

I believe the so-called Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath view is false because it separates the Rapture from the Second Coming! In my view, the only correct position for the 2nd coming and Rapture sees BOTH occurring on the same 12-Hour Day!! The correct Post-Trib view alone recognizes "no one enters heaven's Temple before the Last Plague empties in the air"!!! Rev.15:8.

The Plagues empty first! Angels are the exception for being in the Temple because 7 angels with the 7 last Plagues receive their Bowls after they come out of the Temple some time before the Lastday!! They empty them while it is "filled with the smoke of God's glory and power"!!! Rev.15:6-8.

I believe God's glory and power will not be displayed to anyone until the last Plague empties and all the Saints in heaven enter the Temple for Praise and Prayer to God and the Lamb! Only then, with armies gathered to Armageddon, is Christ about to descend from heaven with the angels!!They bring the "souls of the dead with Him" and the Ark of the Covenant which is seen at last in the Temple!!! I Thess.4:13-14; Rev.11:19.

I am writing this to you because you are the first one I have found who
might recognize that those entering the Temple in heaven for the first time will become the JUDGES (Rev.20:4) of the wicked whose deeds had just led to the Court's Review of six of the seven Judgments and the Angel's Verdict...with coals of fire cast to earth!

This immediately causes the glory of God to be evidenced as the 7th Angel sounds the last Trump proclaiming "God's wrath has come and the appointed (kairos) time for the 3 R's!!

Now God will "Judge (Resurrect the Saints and Prophets), will Reward them and all who fear God, both small and great, and will destroy the destroyers of earth" (Retribution)!!! Rev.11:18.

I am drawing my conclusion about your insight because you start the 7
last Trumpets during the 7th Seal at Rev.8:2 INSTEAD of at Rev.8:6! You
recognize the problem of why there is a half-hour's silence and the 7 Trumpet angels are mentioned BEFORE the Angel of Fire renders the
Verdict based on the Evidence from six of the seven Trumpets in the open Scroll that have already passed by!! No mention for blowing the last Trumpet is included in Rev.8:6 to Rev.9:21 but a flashback to the 1260-day task of the Two Witnesses and their resurrection is inserted so as to allow them to join the Martyrs in the Song of Moses in Rev.15 (so that Rev.10:1 to Rev.11:3-12 only seems to break the continuity until the 7th Angel sounds the last Trumpet in Rev.11:15-18...so we have God's wrath and the three R's announced at the only "appointed time" in Revelation!!!

The 7th Trumpet immediately sounds after the Verdict of Seal Seven!!!

[In Seal 6 men recognize the DAY of wrath has come; not the HOUR; the Plagues exhaust God's patience first].

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

In His most urgent words, in the context of Armageddon, Jesus tells Believers to "Watch because He is coming as a thief" and therefore
expected at any moment! Only when we know His coming is near has He told us to "watch, for we can't know the appointed day or the hour"!! Rev.16:14-16; Matt.24:33; Mark 13:33. This truth has been misapplied
to a so-called-any-moment-rapture that is unlrelated to specific signs!!!

In Mark 13:33 Jesus refers to the "appointed (kairos) time" which no one will know in advance! It's the only "appointed (kairos) time" to follow the end of Chronos-Time and it occurs at the 7th Trumpet!! Only then has God's wrath come...plus the appointed time for Resurrection and Rewards and Retribution!!! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:18.

Prophecies of Christ's return require that "all Believers be raised up by the Lord on the last day"...after the last Martyr has been killed; after the Two Witnesses arise to heaven; and after the Verdict by the Angel of Fire, at Seal 7, signals the 7th Angel to sound the "Last Trump"! John 6:38-40;
I Cor.15:52.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

I believe what happens in the Temple of Heaven on the Lastday begins at Rev.15:5.

But what occurs in the Temple has already been described! Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5. Plagues have finished God’s patience! Martyrs have come out from under the Altar!! The Firstfruits unto God and the Lamb have joined them, standing before God on a crystal sea, mixed with fire, to sing the song of the Lamb and the song of Moses!!! Rev.15:1-4.

Following their combined Praise in the presence of both God and the Lamb (Rev.7:9-17), the Lamb breaks Seal 7 to open the Scroll, the first and only time, for about a half hour’s silent but incriminating display of evidence presented by 6 of 7 Angels with 7 Trumpets!

Then the Angel of Fire presents the Prayers of all the Saints to God! His anger mixes
full strength in the Cup of Wrath!! Rev.14:10. The 7th Angel immediately (as part of the proceedings in the Temple) proclaims that “God’s wrath has come and appointed time” for the Three R’s: Resurrection and Rewards to the Saints and Prophets and to all who fear God, both small and great, and Retribution to those who are destroying the earth”!!!

The HOUR of “God’s wrath has come” at the 7th Trumpet. I am convinced the following verses will be fulfilled in quick succession. Rev.11:15; Rev.16:15; Rev.19:15.

Because the Last Plague must empty in the air before the Temple clears of the smoke of God’s glory and power (Rev.15:8), the voice from the Throne in the Temple must declare “It is Done” (Rev.16:17), the Lamb must open Seal 6 to begin the Day of Wrath, and then the Martyrs and Firstfruit Praise God and offer Prayers in the Temple before the Lamb is crowned King of kings and God’s Wrath begins...and “God Almighty begins to Reign”!!! Rev.11:17.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,
During the first fifty years of my life, the consensus among Pre-Trib proponents was that
“One taken and One left” refers to a Pre-Trib event! The Believer would be “taken” to heaven via the Rapture!! The one “left” would be “fed to the birds”!!! Luke 17:27-37.

In the 70’s there was a sudden “sea-change” of doctrine! The leaders realized this event refers to one of the days AFTER the great tribulation; that it cannot refer to the Rapture!!
Since then the One Taken refers to the Judgment of the wicked and the One Left refers to Believers “Left Behind” to populate the Kingdom at Christ’s 2nd Coming!!!

Some Pre-Tribbers still hold to the original view! This fits Ed Edward’s interpretation that Jesus describes a Pre-Trib Rapture as occurring before rather than after the “great tribulation”!! The “unknown Day” of Christ’s coming requires a period of seven years!!!

But it leads to the theory of “two Last Days, two Last Trumps and two Ends of the Age”!
The prime teaching of Jesus that He will “raise up every believer on the last day and that
He will gather the Elect from earth to heaven” on one of the days after great tribulation cannot be realized as a literal event!! It requires Paul’s “Day of Vengeance, when Christ comes in flaming fire to deliver every Believer and to destroy earth’s destroyers,” to be a time-period of seven years!!! John 6:38-40, 44,54; 11:24; Mark 13:27; 2 Thess.1:6-10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //This fits Ed Edward's interpretation that Jesus describes a Pre-Trib Rapture as occurring before rather than after the "great tribulation"!! //
...

Mel Miller: //But it leads to the theory of "two Last Days, two Last Trumps and two Ends of the Age"!
The prime teaching of Jesus that He will "raise up every believer on the last day and that
He will gather the Elect from earth to heaven" on one of the days after great tribulation cannot be realized as a literal event!!//

My Pre-tribulation Rapture/resurrection does NOT
lead to a 'two Last Days' theory. There is one LAST DAY
to the Church Age (AKA: Age of the Gentiles, time of the Gentiles).
There is one Last Day for the Antichrist.
There is one Last Day for each individual, in Christ, who
dies before the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

There are many Last Trumps (none of them named 'donald')
. 'Last Trump' indicates the
last warning that THE END HAS COME. As far as I can
tell we, in Christ, who die prior to the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection
will have our own 'last trump'. There will be a last trump of
the Tribulation inter-age (the last Trump of Revelation).
There will also probably be a last trump for the Millinnial
Reign of Messiah/Christ upon the Throne of David.

Each age only has one end.
The tribulation period is NOT an age, but is the transition
point between the current evil age, (the age of the Church, age
of the Gentiles, time of the gentiles, etc.) and the
Messanic Kingdom Age to follow.

 

[Mel Miller]

Even under your proposed scenario the "all saints" argument would seem to lack Scriptural support, for it has no place for
the so-called Millenium saints. If they are saints, they, by your reasoning, would be included in this one-size-fits-all crowd.
____________________________________________________________
Ed Sutton,

Since you are questioning the Apostle Paul who states that "all the Saints will come with Jesus", what Saints do you think will NOT come with Him?

You are illogical to even suggest that I must include "unborn Millennial saints" among those who come with Jesus. Just as you wrote: "How can that be? They would not have even been born yet".

Your Quote:
___________________________________________________________
The literary usage of all does not 'automatically' include every single person who might fit that category, but can be limited by other things, in this case, the body of Christ, perhaps.
_____________________________________________________________

Who else could possibly come with Jesus other than His entire Body??

Your Quote:
____________________________________________________________
There are other places where a generic 'ALL' is used figuratively, as opposed to a 'count.' I submit that is what is in view in I Thess. 3:13. Ed
t'other Ed) AND as always, two 'Eds are better than one.) :thumbsup: :laugh: :laugh:

____________________________________________________________

Ed, what do you prove about the word "ALL" by calling it "figurative"???
The "all" of I Thess.3:13 equals the "all" whom Jesus promises to raise up
on the Last Day! John 6:38-40,44,54. Even Ed Edwards admits that OT
Saints and Trib Saints are included among the Saints in question!! The Lamb is coming with all the "called, elect and faithful"!!! Rev.17:14.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net