Semi-Calvinism

[JonC]

That is why many narrow this issue down to either God is the One saving sinners alone, or else he has sinner co operate with him in the process, such as Sacramental grace of Rome!

But another issue is that while you and I would view the "free-will" position as man cooperating with God, many do not come to that conclusion. I cannot help but see the crux of that type of view a salvation dependent on the decision of man. That is why I am not a free-will Baptist. It is also why my friends who are free-will Baptist do not try to persuade me into their position. For me it would be downgrading the gospel. For them it is not because they do not come to what I believe is the logical conclusion of their position. And they see my position as downgrading the gospel with a false robotic sense of justice, love, and faith. That is why I believe it is best to simply talk about doctrines rather than argue camps. I do not mind explaining my position and arguing against what I believe is error. But at the same time we have to be careful that we do not destroy the faith of another.

 

[Yeshua1]

But another issue is that while you and I would view the "free-will" position as man cooperating with God, many do not come to that conclusion. I cannot help but see the crux of that type of view a salvation dependent on the decision of man. That is why I am not a free-will Baptist. It is also why my friends who are free-will Baptist do not try to persuade me into their position. For me it would be downgrading the gospel. For them it is not because they do not come to what I believe is the logical conclusion of their position. And they see my position as downgrading the gospel with a false robotic sense of justice, love, and faith. That is why I believe it is best to simply talk about doctrines rather than argue camps. I do not mind explaining my position and arguing against what I believe is error. But at the same time we have to be careful that we do not destroy the faith of another.

I was just saying that it boils don to these 2 camps in the bottom line ense, and wecan agree our viewis more biblical, but they are still aved andbethren in Christ!

They just havea hard timeseeing that Free Will does not eally exist since the Fall, and that God is still sovereign in all things, especially salvation!

 

[JonC]

I was just saying that it boils don to these 2 camps in the bottom line ense, and wecan agree our viewis more biblical, but they are still aved andbethren in Christ!

They just havea hard timeseeing that Free Will does not eally exist since the Fall, and that God is still sovereign in all things, especially salvation!

I also find that odd. What makes us deny the free-will position is evident in our daily lives (not just our religious views).

My wife and I are raising our son in such a way that we hope to have a lasting impact on how he lives his life. We try to instill in him Christian values and help him develop a Christian worldview. We teach him right from wrong. We also pray that God will lead and guide him. In other words, we want to do more than present him with options. We want to teach him how to live and we hope that his desires and the way that he thinks is influenced for the good by how we are raising him.

 

[MB]

I was just saying that it boils don to these 2 camps in the bottom line ense, and wecan agree our viewis more biblical, but they are still aved andbethren in Christ!

They just havea hard timeseeing that Free Will does not eally exist since the Fall, and that God is still sovereign in all things, especially salvation!

I'm freewill and I still believe Salvation is all of God. I just do not believe that we are forced in to Salvation. God may convince me that I need Him which He did. Although being convinced we need Him and being dragged off and saved against our wills are two very different things. Being willing to be saved is in scripture. being saved against our will is not. Being regenerated before faith is impossible and this is not in scripture either. Faith always come to man before Salvation, other wise men could be saved with out faith which is also impossible.
MB

 

[JonC]

I'm freewill and I still believe Salvation is all of God. I just do not believe that we are forced in to Salvation. God may convince me that I need Him which He did. Although being convinced we need Him and being dragged off and saved against our wills are two very different things. Being willing to be saved is in scripture. being saved against our will is not. Being regenerated before faith is impossible and this is not in scripture either. Faith always come to man before Salvation, other wise men could be saved with out faith which is also impossible.
MB

Good example of my point. You are freewill and believe salvation completely a work of God (the opposite of what some claim you believe). You in turn present the opposing view as somehow holding that we are forced into salvation (the opposite of what they really believe).

 

[JonShaff]

I'm a pastor at a free will Baptist Church and I'm still in awe that the God of All Creation saved my wretched soul. To God be all the Glory through Jesus Christ our Lord! He did 100% of the Work Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[utilyan]

The responses given here are the sort I hoping to hear in other threads. So if we got free-will we have the full ability and choice to not sin, right?

The apostles thought it was impossible to be saved.

Matthew 19

23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


Now if someone claims they are already saved well then God is with them already ahead of the curve of "who can be saved?" done deal. they are saved. But then to turn around and say well to stop sinning is impossible. How? If being saved was already a impossibility and God is with you, why is it so far fetched that he can train you to no longer sin?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your Particular Baptist forbears were solidly into Covenant Theology.

so was his Hugonaut forbears

 

[JonShaff]

The responses given here are the sort I hoping to hear in other threads. So if we got free-will we have the full ability and choice to not sin, right?

The apostles thought it was impossible to be saved.

Matthew 19

23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


Now if someone claims they are already saved well then God is with them already ahead of the curve of "who can be saved?" done deal. they are saved. But then to turn around and say well to stop sinning is impossible. How? If being saved was already a impossibility and God is with you, why is it so far fetched that he can train you to no longer sin?

Have you stopped sinning?

 

[Yeshua1]

Good example of my point. You are freewill and believe salvation completely a work of God (the opposite of what some claim you believe). You in turn present the opposing view as somehow holding that we are forced into salvation (the opposite of what they really believe).

The Lord enables/changes our wills in order to have us able to accept Jesus, as all of us due to our sin natures would refuse salvation unless/untilGod changed our minds on it!

 

[Yeshua1]

I also find that odd. What makes us deny the free-will position is evident in our daily lives (not just our religious views).

My wife and I are raising our son in such a way that we hope to have a lasting impact on how he lives his life. We try to instill in him Christian values and help him develop a Christian worldview. We teach him right from wrong. We also pray that God will lead and guide him. In other words, we want to do more than present him with options. We want to teach him how to live and we hope that his desires and the way that he thinks is influenced for the good by how we are raising him.

We still have a type of free will that allows usto make choices/decisions, its just that we cannot on our own freely decide " to come to Christ"

 

[Yeshua1]

The responses given here are the sort I hoping to hear in other threads. So if we got free-will we have the full ability and choice to not sin, right?

The apostles thought it was impossible to be saved.

Matthew 19

23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


Now if someone claims they are already saved well then God is with them already ahead of the curve of "who can be saved?" done deal. they are saved. But then to turn around and say well to stop sinning is impossible. How? If being saved was already a impossibility and God is with you, why is it so far fetched that he can train you to no longer sin?

Because while still in this flesh, have a sin naturethat will NOTallow us to obtain sinless perfection state!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm a pastor at a free will Baptist Church and I'm still in awe that the God of All Creation saved my wretched soul. To God be all the Glory through Jesus Christ our Lord! He did 100% of the Work Soli Deo Gloria!

We can discuss/disagree on some things of the faith, but we are still one in Christ!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I'm a pastor at a free will Baptist Church and I'm still in awe that the God of All Creation saved my wretched soul. To God be all the Glory through Jesus Christ our Lord! He did 100% of the Work Soli Deo Gloria!

You pastor at a Free Will Baptist Church and you also believe in Eternal Security?
I thought that was a new one.

 

[JonShaff]

You pastor at a Free Will Baptist Church and you also believe in Eternal Security?
I thought that was a new one.

I read the bible for myself

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I read the bible for myself

Hey, I get it, and that's cool with me.

I just thought that was a rare combination indeed!

I was raised in, and I preach in, Southern Baptist pulpits and I don't believe in Eternal Security (as such)......

I also read the Bible for myself....
and I don't see it...but I think it's a minor point anyway...

Original Sin...that's a stickler for me, and I clearly think it's un-biblical.

But, hey, good for you brother! As long as they know it...more power to ya.

 

[Yeshua1]

I read the bible for myself

Think even the founder of so calle classic Armianism himself was not totally sure could lose salvation, but was positive had a chance to do that!

 

[JonShaff]

Hey, I get it, and that's cool with me.

I just thought that was a rare combination indeed!

I was raised in, and I preach in, Southern Baptist pulpits and I don't believe in Eternal Security (as such)......

I also read the Bible for myself....
and I don't see it...but I think it's a minor point anyway...

Original Sin...that's a stickler for me, and I clearly think it's un-biblical.

But, hey, good for you brother! As long as they know it...more power to ya.

So if you don't believe in original sin, what do you adhere to?

 

[JonShaff]

Think even the founder of so calle classic Armianism himself was not totally sure could lose salvation, but was positive had a chance to do that!

I have read much about Benjamin Randall and i really haven't seen where he flat out says he believes he can reverse being born again.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Think even the founder of so calle classic Armianism himself was not totally sure could lose salvation, but was positive had a chance to do that!

Apparently not...but, everyone has their own spin on Arminius anyways.

Then again, Arminius is hardly the Messiah of non-Calvinists so, it doesn't matter that much.

Arminius was a smart guy....but, he was too steeped in Reformation Augustinianism for my liking.

He had to explain away Eternal Security and Limited Atonement from the standpoint of Non-passe-non-pecarre...

Therefore, his Theology went off-point.
He defended freedom of will from that assumption............

He should have realized that that particular philosophy was pagan Manicheanism and denied it whole-sale and his Theology would have been more on point.

Deny Original Sin.............

Understand that "Sin" is a willful act of disobedience and rebellion against God.
And stop believing that sin is some weird invisible, undetectable genetic disease you inherit genetically from your daddy....

And practically all of Christian Theology falls into place so simply and directly it's ridiculous...It's the most freeing and explanatorily valuable thing you can do (alongside understanding the power of God's Middle-Knowledge).