Semi-pelagian

[kyredneck]

What is hard to understand about these words "The election of Isaac, Jacob and even Pharaoh was to carry through Gods' plan of salvation. Theirs' was to service not to salvation."

Oh, I understand perfectly what you're persisting in doing, chopping it up and cherry picking only what you want to see. It was not only "service" that the Israelites were elected to:

3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren`s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, read these words:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
~ Ephesians 2:4-5

Silverhair, look at what God does. It's all God. Stop trying to take credit for your salvation.
Nowhere is our human will and choice to trust a requirement before God can save.

No, our capacity to trust and believe comes as an effect of God causing us to be saved. You keep taking from God's glory and attempt to put that glory onto yourself. It is so massively man-centered on your part and you are blind to what you are doing.

Faith is not merited. It is always a gift God gives to His elect children. Therefore, you are wrong in your grasp of what I teach.

All the verses you quote entirely support what I teach. God is fully the Savior and He doesn't need your help...or your permission.

Austin you need to look at what God teaches. Just because you do not like the idea that God expects man to make real choices does not mean that He does not. I agree that faith is not merited but it is required.

Austin I am quite sure I have a good grasp of what you teach, and that is why I oppose it. You distort the text so as to fit your errant view. Since what you teach does not comport with the bible then the verses that I posted can not in any way support your view.

 

[kyredneck]

And what meaning might that be?

I weary of your rabbit holes. Done.

 

[Silverhair]

Oh, I understand perfectly what you're persisting in doing, chopping it up and cherry picking only what you want to see. It was not only "service" that the Israelites were elected to:

3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren`s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

KY did I say anything about Israel, NO. Do you think I do not know what came through the Jews? Do you think you are the only one that reads the bible?

 

[Silverhair]

I weary of your rabbit holes. Done.

KY your the one that loves the rabbit holes as you continue to run away from the text.

 

[kyredneck]

KY did I say anything about Israel,

No! Paul did. You've 'cherry picked' Isaac and Jacob and Pharoah to be the subjects of election in Romans 9 when the context entails "not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles", i.e., EVERYONE.

 

[Silverhair]

No! Paul did. You've 'cherry picked' Isaac and Jacob and Pharoah to be the subjects of election in Romans 9 when the context entails "not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles", i.e., EVERYONE.

You really do not read do you. Try again and this time try reading one word at a time. Perhaps you will understand what I wrote.

 

[Silverhair]

You really do not read do you. Try again and this time try reading one word at a time. Perhaps you will understand what I wrote.

If you can understand what I wrote then you have a serious comprehension problem. Either that or you just like to be argumentative for the sake of argument.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you need to look at what God teaches. Just because you do not like the idea that God expects man to make real choices does not mean that He does not. I agree that faith is not merited but it is required.

Austin I am quite sure I have a good grasp of what you teach, and that is why I oppose it. You distort the text so as to fit your errant view. Since what you teach does not comport with the bible then the verses that I posted can not in any way support your view.

I am looking at what God teaches. That is why I oppose what you teach. Your teaching is not God's teaching.
The very passage I provided tells you that God does the work, even while we were still dead in our sins. Silverhair, you are openly ignoring God's word regarding salvation.

When God chose to redeem me and breath life into me, the effect was that I, by faith, believed.

But it wasn't me causing the belief. It was God. In fact, Christ had exchanged my life for His life. I was given the mind of Christ and I was made alive in Christ alone.

*1 Corinthians 2:14-16*

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

*Galatians 2:20-21*

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

*Hebrews 12:1-2*

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

You have very little grasp regarding what God teaches. You substitute the glory of God in salvation and replace it with the glory of man.

 

[AustinC]

KY did I say anything about Israel, NO. Do you think I do not know what came through the Jews? Do you think you are the only one that reads the bible?

It's pretty obvious you don't understand, Silverhair, which is why you lift up humanity in salvation and try to tear down God's Supremacy.

 

[Silverhair]

I am looking at what God teaches. That is why I oppose what you teach. Your teaching is not God's teaching.
The very passage I provided tells you that God does the work, even while we were still dead in our sins. Silverhair, you are openly ignoring God's word regarding salvation.

Austin the passage [Eph 2:4-5] tells that God saves and it is by His grace which we know is because we have faith in His son. Remember {by grace you have been saved through faith}. {Eph 2:8} I keep telling you this but you keep missing it. You hold on to this idea that one is saved before they even trust in Christ Jesus. So it would seem you are the one that is openly ignoring God's word regarding salvation.

When God chose to redeem me and breath life into me, the effect was that I, by faith, believed.

But it wasn't me causing the belief. It was God. In fact, Christ had exchanged my life for His life. I was given the mind of Christ and I was made alive in Christ alone.

*1 Corinthians 2:14-16*

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

To say that the sinner does not naturally receive the things of the Spirit of God is not to say that he cannot. Apart from divine enlightenment, conviction, and drawing, no sinner would respond to the Gospel, but this enlightenment, conviction, and drawing is extended to every sinner (Joh_1:9; Joh_16:8; Joh_12:32).

*Galatians 2:20-21*

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Not sure what point you were trying to make with these verses but verse 20 happens to be the signature on my email so I agree with what Paul says here.


You say that the man who is dead in their sins can not nor would not want to seek God but what does Paul say Gal 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, ...” Notice that even while we are sinners we can seek to be justified by Christ. I have pointed this truth out to you a number of times but you ignore it every time.

Note that even for the Calvinist “elect” the application of the atonement is not immediate at the cross, but is contingent upon faith in time.

*Hebrews 12:1-2*

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word “our” is not in the original here, and obscures the sense. The meaning is, he is the first and the last as an example of faith or of confidence in God Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

The A.V. is misleading, and narrows the scope of the passage. For author, rend. leader or captain, and see on Heb_2:10. For finisher, rend. perfecter. For our faith, rend. faith or the faith.... In himself he furnished the perfect development, the supreme example of faith, and in virtue of this he is the leader of the whole believing host in all time. Vincent's Word Studies

Because it is He {Jesus} who begins and brings to perfection our faith, we must run the race with our eye fixed upon Him: in Him is the beginning, in Him the completion of the promises (2Co_1:20); and in the steady and trustful dependence upon Him which this figure describes consists our faith. Ellicott's Commentary

You have very little grasp regarding what God teaches. You substitute the glory of God in salvation and replace it with the glory of man.

I really do not understand why you have such a problem with the text of the bible, other than that you have to read into the text what is not there. If you would just loose your Calvinist theology and just trust the text of the bible you would be much better off.

 

[Silverhair]

It's pretty obvious you don't understand, Silverhair, which is why you lift up humanity in salvation and try to tear down God's Supremacy.

You keep saying the same thing over and over. The problem is Austin what you are saying is not true. You are the one that has to change the text or meaning to fit your theology not me. I trust what the bible says, unlike you.

 

[AustinC]

You keep saying the same thing over and over. The problem is Austin what you are saying is not true. You are the one that has to change the text or meaning to fit your theology not me. I trust what the bible says, unlike you.

What I am saying is true and is presented clearly in scripture.
You openly ignore the whole of scripture and then microscope sentences out of context to force the Bible to fit your man-centered theology. You refuse to acknowledge the first 7 verses of Ephesians 2, while clinging only to verse 8. Thus you miss all that Paul is presenting as his argument for salvation.

If you trusted the Bible, you would allow all of the Bible to speak and interpret for you. But, you use the Bible like a godless person would use the Bible. You need to stop that and let the whole of scripture speak to you.

 

[AustinC]

Austin the passage [Eph 2:4-5] tells that God saves and it is by His grace which we know is because we have faith in His son. Remember {by grace you have been saved through faith}. {Eph 2:8}

You add "we know it because we have faith in his son" yet the text says "even when we were dead in our trespasses."

So, this means that we would have faith in Jesus, while we were dead.
Tell me how, when you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?
Silverhair, you have to deal with what Paul is saying from verse 1 to 9 and let it speak rather than add what Paul doesn't add.

 

[Silverhair]

What I am saying is true and is presented clearly in scripture.
You openly ignore the whole of scripture and then microscope sentences out of context to force the Bible to fit your man-centered theology. You refuse to acknowledge the first 7 verses of Ephesians 2, while clinging only to verse 8. Thus you miss all that Paul is presenting as his argument for salvation.

If you trusted the Bible, you would allow all of the Bible to speak and interpret for you. But, you use the Bible like a godless person would use the Bible. You need to stop that and let the whole of scripture speak to you.

Austin what you fail to understand is that Eph 2 is part of the whole letter and that it comes after Eph 1. You us verses in isolation and miss what Paul is telling us.
We were dead in sin but God saved us {Eph 2:5 & 8} after we responded to the gospel message and trusted in the Son for our salvation. {Eph 1:13-14}

You, Austin, continue to force the bible to say what it does not say so as to make it fit your man-made theology. Trust what the bible says not what you want it to say.

Austin you really need to watch what you are saying. When you make your veiled accusations that I am a godless person, that can get you banned. I have been tolerant with your comments but that tolerance is running out. Clean up your act, these type of comments are unchristian to say the least.

 

[Silverhair]

You add "we know it because we have faith in his son" yet the text says "even when we were dead in our trespasses."

So, this means that we would have faith in Jesus, while we were dead.
Tell me how, when you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?
Silverhair, you have to deal with what Paul is saying from verse 1 to 9 and let it speak rather than add what Paul doesn't add.

Read post # 95

 

[AustinC]

Austin what you fail to understand is that Eph 2 is part of the whole letter and that it comes after Eph 1. You us verses in isolation and miss what Paul is telling us.
We were dead in sin but God saved us {Eph 2:5 & 8} after we responded to the gospel message and trusted in the Son for our salvation. {Eph 1:13-14}

You, Austin, continue to force the bible to say what it does not say so as to make it fit your man-made theology. Trust what the bible says not what you want it to say.

Austin you really need to watch what you are saying. When you make your veiled accusations that I am a godless person, that can get you banned. I have been tolerant with your comments but that tolerance is running out. Clean up your act, these type of comments are unchristian to say the least.

Silverhair, stop interpreting the Bible like a humanist. It's your man-centered theology that I reject.

I have no idea who you actually are so I cannot speak to your walk with God. I am bound by the rules of the board to acknowledge your self-declared Christianity and thus I consider you a Christian whose theology is man-centered.

 

[AustinC]

Read post # 95

I did. Now please answer the bolded question.

You add "we know it because we have faith in his son" yet the text says "even when we were dead in our trespasses."

So, this means that we would have faith in Jesus, while we were dead.
Tell me how, when you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?
Silverhair, you have to deal with what Paul is saying from verse 1 to 9 and let it speak rather than add what Paul doesn't add.

Your answer in #95 doesn't answer the question. You wrote:
"We were dead in sin but God saved us {Eph 2:5 & 8} after we responded to the gospel message and trusted in the Son for our salvation. {Eph 1:13-14}"

When you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?

Exactly how does your dead spirit choose God?

 

[Silverhair]

I did. Now please answer the bolded question.

You add "we know it because we have faith in his son" yet the text says "even when we were dead in our trespasses."

So, this means that we would have faith in Jesus, while we were dead.
Tell me how, when you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?
Silverhair, you have to deal with what Paul is saying from verse 1 to 9 and let it speak rather than add what Paul doesn't add.

Your answer in #95 doesn't answer the question. You wrote:
"We were dead in sin but God saved us {Eph 2:5 & 8} after we responded to the gospel message and trusted in the Son for our salvation. {Eph 1:13-14}"

When you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?

Exactly how does your dead spirit choose God?

Your refusal to accept what the bible teaches has always surprised me. You say you are a Christian yet deny scripture, why?

It is because of your Gnostic thinking, is that your problem? Your determinism has more in common with the Gnostic's, Muslim's and many cults than it does with the bible.

Saying someone is dead in sin does not mean dead like a corpse as you seem to think. When you ask “Tell me how, when you had zero inclination to know God or serve Him, did you have faith in Him?” Why do you think man has zero inclination to trust in God, that is just your Calvinist philosophy coming through. “Dead” is not a synonym for inability in the Bible but rather for separation.

Did you forget the gospel, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, creation. If God says we have no excuse for not knowing Him do you think we can not know Him through the methods that He has presented?

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit tells us in
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You know all those people that hear the gospel and believe the gospel and God saves them. These are the same ones that God saves by His grace because they believe. Your theology does not comport with scripture no matter how hard you try to make it so.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, stop interpreting the Bible like a humanist. It's your man-centered theology that I reject.

I have no idea who you actually are so I cannot speak to your walk with God. I am bound by the rules of the board to acknowledge your self-declared Christianity and thus I consider you a Christian whose theology is man-centered.

Austin you say you are a Christian, OK. But what I see over and over is your Gnostic philosophy coming through in what you write. Your determinism has clouded your view of the bible. It seems you read the bible through that lens and thus get a distorted view of scripture.