Semi Pelagianism

[glad4mercy]

The Holy Spirit grants unto the elect the means to receive Jesus thru faith, as it is pretty much to us at same time...

At the time of God, I heard the message, the Spirit enabled me to understand it, and I could then believe Jesus is my Messiah...

The Spirit Himself regenerates, grants new mind/heart to those whom then will receive jesus, as it is NOT that He does that to all people, and then up to you to reject/accept!

Does the Holy Spirit grant faith before, after, or similtaneous with indwelling?

Because my understanding is that there is NO REGENERATION unless a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and there is no indwelling without faith.

(BTW, I for my part believe that the Holy Spirit grants faith BEFORE indwelling/regeneration. See, I believe that it is the Spirit that grants faith, but do not confuse "drawing/granting faith" with "regeneration". )

So can we put aside the notion that I believe that saving faith is something that we are sufficient in ourselves to possess. Because I don't.

 

[TCassidy]

 

[glad4mercy]

View attachment 987

I fully agree with that statement!

But is that regeneration or illumination, which is part of God's act of drawing, right?

Regeneration is being raised from Spiritual death by the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not mere illumination

 

[Yeshua1]

Does the Holy Spirit grant faith before, after, or similtaneous with indwelling?

Because my understanding is that there is NO REGENERATION unless a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and there is no indwelling without faith.

(BTW, I for my part believe that the Holy Spirit grants faith BEFORE indwelling/regeneration. See, I believe that it is the Spirit that grants faith, but do not confuse "drawing/granting faith" with "regeneration". )

So can we put aside the notion that I believe that saving faith is something that we are sufficient in ourselves to possess. Because I don't.

In the timing of God, the person God chose to get saved would be regenerated a new heart/mind by the Holy Spirit while hearing/reading the Gospel message, then has the faith to receive Jesus and get saved...

 

[glad4mercy]

In the timing of God, the person God chose to get saved would be regenerated a new heart/mind by the Holy Spirit while hearing/reading the Gospel message, then has the faith to receive Jesus and get saved...

The scripture (Galatians 3:2) says received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, not received faith by the hearing of regeneration.

Also, you have regeneration before faith and salvation. But regeneration, justification, and adoption all happen instantaneously, right? So wouldn't a regenerate person already be saved/have eternal life?

But I can almost go along with your statement. I would say it this way...

In the timing of God, the person would be drawn by the Father through the Holy Spirit while hearing/reading the Gospel message, granted by God to believe, and upon believing, be justified, adopted, regenerated, and positionally sanctified.

 

[percho]

The scripture (Galatians 3:2) says received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, not received faith by the hearing of regeneration.

Also, you have regeneration before faith and salvation. But regeneration, justification, and adoption all happen instantaneously, right? So wouldn't a regenerate person already be saved/have eternal life?

But I can almost go along with your statement. I would say it this way...

In the timing of God, the person would be drawn by the Father through the Holy Spirit while hearing/reading the Gospel message, granted by God to believe, and upon believing, be justified, adopted, regenerated, and positionally sanctified.

Gal. 3:2 out of hearing of faith (of belief)

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; (the received Spirit) but if I depart, I will send him (the Spirit to be received) unto you.

Was the going away of Jesus, the faith they heard of, by which the Spirit was received ? In less that twenty four hours from Jesus saying this, in what manner did Jesus, go away? Where would Jesus be a little while whence? Dead<the faith, heard of? And a little while whence from then, 3 days and 3 nights whence, where would he be? Alive, again? John 16:17

Would he then be exalted to the right hand of the Father? John 16:17 Acts 2:33
Would he then, receive from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33
Would the Spirit, the Comforter, then be shed on them? Acts 2:33

For if I go not away, in death, there will be no obedience unto death, no obedience of faith and there will be no Comforter, no Spirit received to come unto you.
It is expedient for you that I go away, in death. The faith by which the Spirit was received?

and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; 1 Cor 15:17 the grace of life followed the faith in his blood (propitiation,mercy place), resulting in the receiving of the Spirit to be shed forth resulting in those receiving the Spirit by grace through the faith, being made heirs, not yet inheritors, of the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7

God elects whom he wills to translate from unbelief unto belief, as joint heirs with Christ.

 

[glad4mercy]

Gal. 3:2 out of hearing of faith (of belief)

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; (the received Spirit) but if I depart, I will send him (the Spirit to be received) unto you.

Was the going away of Jesus, the faith they heard of, by which the Spirit was received ? In less that twenty four hours from Jesus saying this, in what manner did Jesus, go away? Where would Jesus be a little while whence? Dead<the faith, heard of? And a little while whence from then, 3 days and 3 nights whence, where would he be? Alive, again? John 16:17

Would he then be exalted to the right hand of the Father? John 16:17 Acts 2:33
Would he then, receive from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33
Would the Spirit, the Comforter, then be shed on them? Acts 2:33

For if I go not away, in death, there will be no obedience unto death, no obedience of faith and there will be no Comforter, no Spirit received to come unto you.
It is expedient for you that I go away, in death. The faith by which the Spirit was received?

and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; 1 Cor 15:17 the grace of life followed the faith in his blood (propitiation,mercy place), resulting in the receiving of the Spirit to be shed forth resulting in those receiving the Spirit by grace through the faith, being made heirs, not yet inheritors, of the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7

God elects whom he wills to translate from unbelief unto belief, as joint heirs with Christ.

quote- Was the going away of Jesus, the faith they heard of, by which the Spirit was received ? I

NO. Jesus is talking to His disciples in John. In Galatians, Paul is speaking to new converts, largely gentiles. Different context. One before Pentecost, one after Pentecost.

quote- God elects whom he wills to translate from unbelief unto belief, as joint heirs with Christ

Scripture?

 

[percho]

quote- Was the going away of Jesus, the faith they heard of, by which the Spirit was received ? I

NO. Jesus is talking to His disciples in John. In Galatians, Paul is speaking to new converts, largely gentiles. Different context. One before Pentecost, one after Pentecost.

quote- God elects whom he wills to translate from unbelief unto belief, as joint heirs with Christ

Scripture?

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12,13 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Acts 9:15,16
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. Immediately he preached the Christ[fn] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Acts 9:17-20

? Had Jesus not gone away in death, that is had not given his life a ransom, had not been raised from the dead, exalted to the right hand of God and received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, would the Holy Spirit have been received by the gentiles of Galatia?

 

[Yeshua1]

The scripture (Galatians 3:2) says received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, not received faith by the hearing of regeneration.

Also, you have regeneration before faith and salvation. But regeneration, justification, and adoption all happen instantaneously, right? So wouldn't a regenerate person already be saved/have eternal life?

But I can almost go along with your statement. I would say it this way...

In the timing of God, the person would be drawn by the Father through the Holy Spirit while hearing/reading the Gospel message, granted by God to believe, and upon believing, be justified, adopted, regenerated, and positionally sanctified.

I see all of salvation as the act of God towards His elect, so sinner must have a new heart/mind in order to even be able to believ upon jesus to get saved...

So see it all happening from our point of view at the 'same time"

 

[utilyan]

How to be a Pharisee


1st Believe there is nothing anyone can do to get to heaven, including yourself.

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

2nd believe you are chosen and your status of righteous elect saves you.

11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

30The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” 31And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32“I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

3rd believe you only need to be labeled and called Righteous but never actually be Righteous.

25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26“You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How to be a Pharisee

1st. Tell people that they have to work for their salvation instead of it being a free gift from God.
"For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but the themselves will not lift them with one of their fingers" (Matthew 23:4).
2nd. Believe that you can save yourself by your own ethical righteousness..
'"God I thank you that I am not like other men- extortioners, unjust, adulterers..........." The tax collector, standing afar off would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me, a sinner"' (Luke 18:11-13).
3rd. Boast about your own righteousness, tell everyone how great you are, and how people can make themselves right with God by their own efforts..
'For when we were still without strength, in due time, Christ died for the ungodly' (Romans 5:6).

'Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched,
Weak and wounded, sick and sore;
Jesus ready stands to save you,
Full of pity joined with power.
He is able,
He is willing, doubt no more.

Come ye needy, come and welcome,
God's free bounty glorify!
True belief and true repentance,
Every grace that brings us nigh,
Without money,
Come to Jesus Christ and buy.

Let not conscience make you linger,
Nor of fitness fondly dream.
All the fitness He requireth
Is to feel you need of Him.
This He gives you;
'Tis the Spirit's rising beam.

Lo! The incarnate God ascended
Pleads the merits of His blood.
Venture on Him, venture wholly,
Let no other trust intrude.
None but Jesus
Can do helpless sinners good.'

Joseph Hart, 1712-1768

 

[utilyan]

1st. Tell people that they have to work for their salvation instead of it being a free gift from God.
"For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but the themselves will not lift them with one of their fingers" (Matthew 23:4).
2nd. Believe that you can save yourself by your own ethical righteousness..
'"God I thank you that I am not like other men- extortioners, unjust, adulterers..........." The tax collector, standing afar off would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me, a sinner"' (Luke 18:11-13).
3rd. Boast about your own righteousness, tell everyone how great you are, and how people can make themselves right with God by their own efforts..
'For when we were still without strength, in due time, Christ died for the ungodly' (Romans 5:6).

'Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched,
Weak and wounded, sick and sore;
Jesus ready stands to save you,
Full of pity joined with power.
He is able,
He is willing, doubt no more.

Come ye needy, come and welcome,
God's free bounty glorify!
True belief and true repentance,
Every grace that brings us nigh,
Without money,
Come to Jesus Christ and buy.

Let not conscience make you linger,
Nor of fitness fondly dream.
All the fitness He requireth
Is to feel you need of Him.
This He gives you;
'Tis the Spirit's rising beam.

Lo! The incarnate God ascended
Pleads the merits of His blood.
Venture on Him, venture wholly,
Let no other trust intrude.
None but Jesus
Can do helpless sinners good.'

Joseph Hart, 1712-1768

Matthew 5
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Who is Jesus talking about? Hint: its not me.

Sorry Least, but your wrong.

""For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but the themselves will not lift them with one of their fingers""

You would call loving God a BURDEN, you haven't a clue what good works is.

Hands down top charity in the world is the catholic church.


We don't do works for salvation, We do works because God commands it.

Not everyone is a GOLD DIGGER. Its too bad God couldn't afford to pay you to do his request.
How you value God's command to be worthless, tells me everything about you.

I do good works for the same reason Jesus Christ does good works. Since he's a doer, clearly one of us.

Jesus Christ doesn't practice faith alone. And that's the perfect example.

 

[kyredneck]

The whole concept of belief being a work confuses me.....are there any other verses....

I'm late to the party but here's a few that I recall:

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father; 1 Thess 1

11 To which end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfil every desire of goodness and every work of faith, with power; 2 Thess 1

12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. 1 Tim 6

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. Heb 11

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Ja 2

4 ......the righteous shall live by his faith. Hab 2 ASV
4....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2 YLT

Even under the law faith was expected:

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone. Mt 23

 

[Yeshua1]

The Formula of Concord (under Negative Theses) rejects the “error of the Semi-Pelagians, who teach that man by his own powers can make a beginning of his conversion, but without the grace of the Holy Ghost cannot complete it.”

The document continues by rejecting “Also, when it is taught that, although man by his free will before regeneration is too weak to make a beginning, and by his own powers to turn himself to God, and from the heart to be obedient to God, yet, if the Holy Ghost by the preaching of the Word has made a beginning, and therein offered His grace, then the will of man from its own natural powers can add something, thought little and feebly, to this end, can help and cooperate, qualify and prepare itself for grace, and embrace and accept it, and believe the Gospel.”

The first rejection is Semi-Pelagianism, and I agree that many reject Arminianism falsely (Arminianism does not claim that men can turn to God and then allow God to do the rest). But the second rejection does appear (to me) to be Arminianism (although the objection is pre-Arminianism). I do not know if both points were meant to be taken as Semi-Pelagianism (and if so, I do not know if the term had expanded to incorporate the action of man as effecting salvation).

But that's one reason I prefer to talk about what people believe instead of the "isim" that defines their view. Very often positions are stereotype and characterized in ways that are not necessarily reflective of their views.

Isn't the easiest way to view this is that they would have the sinner co operating with God to save themselves?

 

[JonC]

Isn't the easiest way to view this is that they would have the sinner co operating with God to save themselves?

That's the easiest way, I guess. And if I were God I'd just say "here ya' go....turn or burn" and leave it up to the individual to decide. But then, no one would come and even if they did it would glorify man and not God (or at least man and God...if they are co-partners in salvation).

 

[Revmitchell]

Response of man does not equal cooperating with God to save them selves.

 

[JonC]

Response of man does not equal cooperating with God to save them selves.

I agree. I understand that response to be the result or work of God in the wills of those being saved, so it is a work of God. No one is saved without responding or against their will.

 

[JonShaff]

Calvin's Reality

God: Repent!

Unelect: I can't

Christian to the unelect: Repent!

unelect: I can't

....

unelect now in hell: I deserve hell, clearly, but i wasn't given the opportunity to Respond.

 

[MB]

Does the Holy Spirit grant faith before, after, or similtaneous with indwelling?

Because my understanding is that there is NO REGENERATION unless a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and there is no indwelling without faith.

(BTW, I for my part believe that the Holy Spirit grants faith BEFORE indwelling/regeneration. See, I believe that it is the Spirit that grants faith, but do not confuse "drawing/granting faith" with "regeneration". )

So can we put aside the notion that I believe that saving faith is something that we are sufficient in ourselves to possess. Because I don't.

 

[JonC]

Calvin's Reality

God: Repent!

Unelect: I can't

Christian to the unelect: Repent!

unelect: I can't

....

unelect now in hell: I deserve hell, clearly, but i wasn't given the opportunity to Respond.

I'd change "I can't" to "I won't" and I think you'd have it (it seems to me Scripture indicated we can't because we are unwilling, and God draws some as an expression of grace ).