Senator McCain sought the endorsement of controversial pastor

[KenH]

Has Billy Graham ever tied the Catholic Church to Hitler?

 

[Martin]

Sorry, Martin, but you can make all of the excuses you want for Senator McCain by attacking the Catholic Church

==You clearly are not familiar with my theology. I gladly attack the heresy of the Roman Catholic Church on every occasion I get. Just like the Reformers of old, and all Bible loving Christians, I hate the false soul damning doctrines of the Roman Church.

As for excuses, I have made none. I have only stated facts about McCain, Hagee, and Holocaust historiography. I have a gut feeling you are rather uninformed about those issues. You are certainly free to continue to drag this campaign into the mud using issues like this and age. However I will continue to cite the facts.

unless he repudiates the endorsement of John Hagee

==There is no reason for McCain to repudiate the endorsement of John Hagee. However I will be glad to say he should repudiate Hagee's endorsement if you will honestly say that Obama should repudiate the endorsement of Ted Kennedy.

(which he sought) this will continue to be an issue all the way to November 4 and could very well sink his chances at winning as it will very, very difficult for a Catholic(including Hispanics) to vote for him.

==I am more concerned about the souls of those who sit under the false teachings of the Roman church than I am any political campaign.

 

[Martin]

Since Hagee denies Christ as the Messiah

==If you would take the time to look on Hagee's website you will see that he does believe that Jesus is the Messiah. As for his statement in the commercial, it is rooted in his hyper-dispensational views. Clearly I am no fan of Hagee but I am a fan of getting things right. If I am going to be critical of Hagee I am going to make sure that I am being critical of him in a accurate way. Hagee is part of the name-it-claim it clowns.

i wouldn't consider him a Christian. These are quotes from his book, "In Defense of Israel"...


[FONT=&quot]"Jesus refused to produce a sign because it was not the Father’s will, nor his, to be Messiah." (p. 138)

"The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah." (p. 140)

"They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused." (p. 141)

"Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed." (p. 145)[/FONT]

==I don't know if he is a Christian or not. I assume you have read his book? What are the contexts of those statements? Was it the idea that Jesus refused to be the Jew's Messiah because of their understanding of what the Messiah would be? Just asking since I have not read his book. Please provide the contexts.

 

[KenH]

However I will be glad to say he should repudiate Hagee's endorsement if you will honestly say that Obama should repudiate the endorsement of Ted Kennedy.

Senator Kennedy has not said that the Catholic Church is connected to Hitler.

 

[Martin]

Senator Kennedy has not said that the Catholic Church is connected to Hitler.

You still don't get it, do you? You continue to push aside the historiography of the Holocaust in favor of bashing McCain via Hagee. That should not be done by anyone who wishes to be taken seriously. The role of the Vatican, and Pope Pius XII, during the Holocaust is an issue of debate among historians. For you to just push aside one aspect of the debate, one aspect of the historiography, is simply careless. You are also ignoring the fact that the Catholic Church in some areas was very much guilty of horrible antisemitism (Germany, Austria, and Poland) during the period of the Holocaust. You can't continue to push all of this aside. Hagee maybe going too far, and I may take issue with some of his claims, but you are going too far the other way.

As for Kennedy, why would you support a candidate who is being supported by such a left-wing liberal? I can't figure you out. You went from Ron Paul to Barak Obama. You jumped from limited government to big government.

 

[webdog]

Since Hagee denies Christ as the Messiah, i wouldn't consider him a Christian. These are quotes from his book, "In Defense of Israel"...


[FONT=&quot]"Jesus refused to produce a sign because it was not the Father’s will, nor his, to be Messiah." (p. 138)

"The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah." (p. 140)

"They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused." (p. 141)

"Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed." (p. 145)[/FONT]

It would really help to put those quotes in context. You can just about make anybody say what you want them to by pulling a sentence here and there.

 

[webdog]

Sorry, Martin, but you can make all of the excuses you want for Senator McCain by attacking the Catholic Church; however, unless he repudiates the endorsement of John Hagee(which he sought) this will continue to be an issue all the way to November 4 and could very well sink his chances at winning as it will very, very difficult for a Catholic(including Hispanics) to vote for him.

this is rich

Isn't it you that said everybody will forget about Obama's "typical white person" comment and his association of TWENTY YEARS with a proven racist by October...but EVERYONE will remember McCain's association with Hagee?

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[just-want-peace]

Once a bulldog sinks his teeth into something, he's too close to see what he's got; at this point he holds on cause he does remember that it was something that he either wanted or hated.

But now he won't let go since he's being satisfied somehow, even if he's not sure which way!:tonofbricks::BangHead:

Amazing how Homo Sapiens emulates this behavior at times.:thumbs:

 

[Dragoon68]

Well Ken, I went back and did a search and found that my remarks on the Holocaust were directed towards you. Yet, I don't believe you responded. It was in one of several threads you have posted on McCain and Hagee (ie...this is not the first).

Anyway here is what I said with the link:

"There is a thread of holocaust historiography that asserts that there was a close relationship of some sort between Rome and the Nazi government of Germany. I refer you to a controversial work called Hitler's Pope. Then there are those who are responding to Hitler's Pope with books such as The Myth of Hitler's Pope. Personally I believe the issue is more complex than any of those author's allows for. Pope PiusXII had a personal dedication to, what one scholar has called, the "diplomatic church model". As such, the failure of Pius to respond to the events of the Holocaust in a timely and effective manner was the result of this view of how the Roman Catholic Church should engage in such issues. Was there antisemitism in the Roman Church (as well as the Protestant Church)? Certainly. Did that play a role in the decisions of Pius and the Vatican? Probably not. As has been pointed out, "virtually no evidence exists of overt antisemitism at this level". However the antisemitism of some Catholics in places like Germany, Austria, and Poland did have terrible results. So my view on this matter is that both sides make it too black and white. The role of the Vatican, Pius XII, and the larger Catholic Church in the Holocaust is complex and varies from situation to situation.

My point is that Hagee's views are not totally out of the ballpark. His views are represented by a certain school within the Holocaust historiography. Sadly those who fly off the handle and condemn Hagee for his views, and through Hagee's endorsement McCain, often have a very limited understanding of the issues. We must also keep in mind that, long before the Holocaust, the Catholic Church was condemned by protestant evangelicals. Why? Because of the Catholic Church's perverting of the Gospel and persecution of Christians. I am deeply bothered by the habit of so many evangelicals today of buddying up with Rome. We must never forget the warnings of Scripture about those who pervert the Gospel with works (Gal 1:6-9)." -SOURCE

You did an excellent job of addressing this issue with this and several other posts!

 

[KenH]

I can't figure you out. You went from Ron Paul to Barak Obama.

As I have stated before - civil liberties and foreign policy, and that over the past couple of years I have become more progressive on economic policy.

Ya'll act like I'm the only Congressman Paul supporter who is now supporting Senator Obama. I have heard at least two talk show callers who have done the same thing, so you know there are even more than just the three of us.

 

[webdog]

Ya'll act like I'm the only Congressman Paul supporter who is now supporting Senator Obama.

I know plenty of lost people who have done this...not too many saved ones, however...well, you are the only one I know of.

 

[Martin]

As I have stated before - civil liberties and foreign policy, and that over the past couple of years I have become more progressive on economic policy.

==Then why were you supporting Ron Paul? Seems to me like your concern for civil liberties is defeated by your support for a big government democrat like Barak Obama. Again, I just don't get it.

Ya'll act like I'm the only Congressman Paul supporter who is now supporting Senator Obama.

==Well I don't know anyone, or of anyone, who was a supporter of Paul who is now supporting Obama. I know of plenty who are now supporting McCain or a third party candidate, but not Obama. I suppose this is because Obama is a big government liberal who is 180 degrees different from Paul. I am sure there are others who went from Paul to Obama, but I can't believe there are that many. I would suspect that many who did only did so because they got caught up in Obama-mania. Positionally Obama and Paul are just too far apart for them to be sharing supporters.

 

[KenH]

==Then why were you supporting Ron Paul?

Principally based on civil liberties and foreign policy.

 

[steaver]

Likewise, why would a serious presidential candidate seek the endorsement of such a Christian minister?

I think it calls into serious question the judgment of Senator McCain and whether this nation should trust him with having his finger on the nuclear button.

Ken, why would a serious presidential candidate sit under a racist pastor?

Why would a serious presidential candidate refuse to disassociate himself from a racist congregation?

And you wonder if you can trust McCain but do not wonder about Obama?

Really Ken.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[KenH]

All three of the remaining major candidates are flawed. You know that, steaver.

I cannot support Senator McCain because I sincerely believe that he wants to start a war with Iran and continue our nation's presence in Iraq, as he has stated, for a hundred years.

 

[webdog]

I cannot support Senator McCain because I sincerely believe that he wants to start a war with Iran and continue our nation's presence in Iraq, as he has stated, for a hundred years.

If this is God's will, it will occur regardless of who holds office.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

If this is God's will, it will occur regardless of who holds office.

So let's help it along. What a fatalistic view. What if it ISN'T God's will, but McCain does it anyway?

 

[webdog]

So let's help it along. What a fatalistic view. What if it ISN'T God's will, but McCain does it anyway?

You believe ANYbody can thwart God's will? Would He be surprised if we go to war with Iran?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

You believe ANYbody can thwart God's will?

Sure. Let's say I decide to have an affair with a woman outside my marriage. Is that God's will? Or have I thwarted it?

Would He be surprised if we go to war with Iran?

Probably not, given the way people fail to live up to the ideals of their religious views.

 

[webdog]

Sure. Let's say I decide to have an affair with a woman outside my marriage. Is that God's will? Or have I thwarted it?

Probably not, given the way people fail to live up to the ideals of their religious views.

I'm talking about God's decretive will...not permissive will. If war with Iran is in the cards, it will happen regardless. You assume it cannot happen if Obama or Clinton take office. They are only one branch of government.