serving as a deacon after divorce

[Scott J]

No. It is not an argument from silence. It is an argument from what God said against additions to what God said by biased people. If anyone is arguing from silence, rather from nothing, it is you all. God simply did not say anything about divorce in these requirements... yet not only would many of you say that it was the intent, you would say that it is all that was meant.

IOW's, a divorcee couldn't be a deacon but someone who had lived with someone prior to marriage could.

Also your analogy does not fit. There is no parallel whatsoever.

If my argument is so "weak, weak, weak" then you should have been able to provide an interpretation of these passages that is consistent.

My interpretation is that God declared that a deacon must have certain character traits. One of those is that he must be a one woman man. The context implies that the traits mentioned are the current character of the man. That means that a man must be faithful in every way to his wife.

If you want to make these traits life time requirements then that is another consistent way of interpretting this scripture. But to do so, you must disqualify anyone who has ever been in violation of any of the requirements.

Just the "one woman man" requirement would disqualify anyone who had ever had a pre-marital relationship that would have been considered "unfaithfulness" after marriage.
No fantasies, romantic kissing, romantic involvement of any kind, and certainly no sex (real or imagined).

This alone probably disqualifies everyone on this board and every person I know.

 

[Scott J]

Thanks Jim!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Plain ol' Ralph:
I'm afraid God puts a wee-bit more emphasis on Holy Matrimony than liberal minded and comprimising men do, for them that is.

Not just matrimony. That is limiting God's value judgments as quite small.

Jer. 3:6-9, "Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. "I thought, `After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. "Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.

Ro 2:22,23, "You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?"

James 4:4, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Scott J:


My interpretation is that God declared that a deacon must have certain character traits. One of those is that he must be a one woman man. The context implies that the traits mentioned are the current character of the man. That means that a man must be faithful in every way to his wife.

If you want to make these traits life time requirements then that is another consistent way of interpretting this scripture. But to do so, you must disqualify anyone who has ever been in violation of any of the requirements.

If what some others propose then all who were engaged shoud have gone through a divorce proceeding to coincide with the culture of the OT and NT. Also al of the requirements about deacons and pastors are in the present tense.

 

[williemakeit]

Some may have a real problem believing this, but God is still at work raising up Godly men, that have not knelt to Baal. Those that have, and are waiting for marriage before having sex, those that still believe in the sancity of marriage, those that can deal with their lustful desires by fleeing from it, those that study their bibles faithfully, and get down on their knees and cry out to God daily. You may not have met any of them, but I meet them on a regular basis, and they have my deepest admiration. The road to distruction is wide, and I was on it for several years; however, I have met these outstanding men that have kept to that straight and narrow path all of their lives. Are they perfect? No, they are sinners saved by grace just as I am, but God has seen their heart's desires, and has used them especially for mighty works. Are these types of men lacking in your church?

 

[dianetavegia]

And those churches who have become weak or wishy washy are spoken of in scripture. "Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches."

Revelation 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

 

[El_Guero]

Sister,

Don't forget what God spoke through the prophet Jeremiah ... Bad leadership will convince Godly people to follow the wrong path every time.

 

[just-want-peace]

God also never said "Thou shalt not hire hitmen to commit murder on your behalf", nevertheless, I think we can agree He probably is against it.

This is a weak, weak, weak argument. An argument from silence I believe it is called.

The desperation of a lack of logic in their argument is glaring!

 

[dianetavegia]

It also says:
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

 

[Biblicist]

Originally posted by williemakeit:
Some may have a real problem believing this, but God is still at work raising up Godly men, that have not knelt to Baal. Those that have, and are waiting for marriage before having sex, those that still believe in the sancity of marriage, those that can deal with their lustful desires by fleeing from it, those that study their bibles faithfully, and get down on their knees and cry out to God daily. You may not have met any of them, but I meet them on a regular basis, and they have my deepest admiration. The road to distruction is wide, and I was on it for several years; however, I have met these outstanding men that have kept to that straight and narrow path all of their lives. Are they perfect? No, they are sinners saved by grace just as I am, but God has seen their heart's desires, and has used them especially for mighty works. Are these types of men lacking in your church?

Willie, I asked the same question brother. How pathetic have we become when the finest examples of true believers are divorced men?

I am with you 100%.

Also, someone please show me a verse where the bible allows for REMARRIAGE after divorce. Just one.

Marriage ends at death. The bible says because of the hardness of our hearts Moses gave permission for divorce. Nowhere does it say that legally ends marriage or that you can remarry.

Show me!

 

[omalley]

hmmm, wonder if I can get some of you guys to exegete this passage for me and tell me again how divorce/remarriage is wrong in every circumstance?


Jeremiah 3
6 Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.

7 I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

 

[av1611jim]

Some folks in this thread seem to be MISSING the point.
Just answer definitively why it is that you single out divorce in the list of qualifications as the ONLY disqualifier.
For arguments sake, let's say it IS talking about divorce. This STILL does not answer the single most problem you are faced with. Brother Scott has pointed out your inconsistency, yet you consistently ignore that one point.
Why single out divorce as opposed to every other past sin?
If a man were a drunkerd before getting right with God, would you disqualify him, even if he had been sober for say, 15 years? If not, WHY NOT?
A drunkerd's brain is affected by the damage of alcohol for the rest of his life. "Once a drunk, always a drunk", as they say.
Don't come back with it not being the same thing. Apparently God thinks it is, otherwise it would not be in the list coupled with "divorce".

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

For the record;
I do not think a divorced man can be a pastor. But that is the subject of another thread.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Plain Old Bill]

A baptist will ordain a murderer,a rapist,a thief,a drunk, or a brawler,those are all forgivable sins.Baptist churches will even forgive thier pastors past errors concerning adultery. But they will not forgive divorce.All of the above show a man not to be found without fault.It appears to me if you are a baptist and divorced you have committed the unpardonable sin.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Biblicist:

Marriage ends at death. The bible says because of the hardness of our hearts Moses gave permission for divorce. Nowhere does it say that legally ends marriage or that you can remarry.

Show me!

You are wrong. Marriage also ends at divorce. Otherwise there would be no reason to ever divorce. (Moses'writ or Christs' more specific, "saving for the cause of fornication.")

If a person can biblically divorce (in any dispensation) yet not really be "divorced", then what purpose does the divorce serve. The OT allowed a writ of divorce so the woman could legally remarry.

John 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

In these verses Christ himself acknowledges that the woman's previous divorces had ended her 5 marriages. Otherwise he would have either said, "You still have five husbands." or he would have said, "You are still married to the first one." Instead he just says, "Thou hast well said".

I agree with Scott, Jim, etc. It is terrible to make a statement like:

How pathetic have we become when the finest examples of true believers are divorced men?

Paul, Moses and David were cold blooded killers. Their writings hold more authority in the church than any pastor's ever could. Perhaps you would accept a man as your pastor/deacon if he had killed his ex-wife instead of divorcing her.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
A baptist will ordain a murderer,a rapist,a thief,a drunk, or a brawler,those are all forgivable sins.Baptist churches will even forgive thier pastors past errors concerning adultery. But they will not forgive divorce.All of the above show a man not to be found without fault.It appears to me if you are a baptist and divorced you have committed the unpardonable sin.

Amen Brother POB! I have often pointed out the inconsistencies of the twisted interpretation that says "Husband of one wife" equals "Having never ever been divorced."

Two unsaved men get their unsaved girlfriends pregnant.

Man #1 decides to "do the right thing" and gets married. After about eight years she leaves him for another man. They are divorced. He later gets saved. After years of growing in grace, he marries a nice Christian lady he meets at Bible school.

Man #2 pressures his now ex-girlfriend to get an abortion, then continues shacking up and breaking up with dozens of women for about eight years, until he gets saved. After years of growing in grace, he marries a nice Christian lady he meets at Bible school.

Upon graduation from Bible school, Man #2 is qualified but Man #1 is not? Give me a cotton picking break!

Lacy

 

[av1611jim]

Bro. Lacy.
You are so eloquent at times! LOL

"Give me a cotton picking break!"

Now THAT will preach!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Biblicist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by williemakeit:
Some may have a real problem believing this, but God is still at work raising up Godly men, that have not knelt to Baal. Those that have, and are waiting for marriage before having sex, those that still believe in the sancity of marriage, those that can deal with their lustful desires by fleeing from it, those that study their bibles faithfully, and get down on their knees and cry out to God daily. You may not have met any of them, but I meet them on a regular basis, and they have my deepest admiration. The road to distruction is wide, and I was on it for several years; however, I have met these outstanding men that have kept to that straight and narrow path all of their lives. Are they perfect? No, they are sinners saved by grace just as I am, but God has seen their heart's desires, and has used them especially for mighty works. Are these types of men lacking in your church?

Willie, I asked the same question brother. How pathetic have we become when the finest examples of true believers are divorced men?

I am with you 100%.

Also, someone please show me a verse where the bible allows for REMARRIAGE after divorce. Just one.

Marriage ends at death. The bible says because of the hardness of our hearts Moses gave permission for divorce. Nowhere does it say that legally ends marriage or that you can remarry.

Show me! </font>[/QUOTE]__________________________________________________

You asked for one verse. Here it is;
1Co 7:10
¶ And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13
And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

There ya go! A brother or sister is NOT under bondage IF their unbelieving spouse leaves them!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Amen. In addition if all requirements are not held to equally then gross hypocricy is present.

 

[Repent_and_Believe]

This reminds me of Paul and Barnabas. There was contension among the about taking Mark on their next missionary trip.

Paul said no. Barnabas said yes.

They fought, Barnabas departed and was never heard from again in the Bible.

Mark didnt wet his pants and say it wasnt fair. He kept the faith and Paul later asked that he be brought to him because he was found to be profitable for him in the ministry.

Silas was at the right place at the right time. Paul chose him in place of Barnabas to be his partner. And I doubt that the church at Antioch had a problem with that either.

Only by pride cometh contention. I dont believe it was Paul that had the pride problem. Barnabas believed himself to be right in the matter.

And Mark - well he didnt have much say in the matter but he patiently abided until his time came to be a blessing to God and Paul later on.

And Silas - by being a good partner he enjoyed the blessings of God with Paul.

Thus I like what one fellow said about this topic - he has been divorced but doesnt mind that he is not qualified to be a deacon or pastor.

I know of one man that also was divorced and couldnt be a pastor - though he was a youth director - and didnt seem to have a problem with it.

Christ's body is supposed to be a picture of the marriage relationship of the bride to the bridegroom. Thus its leaders are expected to have fulfilled their vows properly and God is very much bothered about divorce (Malachi).

Thus if Mark didnt mind (the divorced man in type) and later on could be a blessing to God with his life (not that he was some offensive thing in the sight of God) then why should Barnabas be all hot about it?

Take heed lest you find Silas enjoying your blessing. That is what happens when you start flirting with false doctrine.

I prefer to hold to the historical position of a man being a deacon that has not been unscripturally divorced. Drunkard in the distant past yes. Current drunkard or even one of a year ago? No.

And then why should the American people be so hung up on the qualifications of the US President as it regards their war service? Bush and Kerry both served so long ago yet many men criticized each in some way.

I am more interested in what a man has been for the last few years than back in 1972.

However, God is very much interested in our marital vows fellows.

If we lost an arm before we were saved doesnt mean that we get it back upon our conversion. There ARE somethings that we just cant have back.

How much more important is our marriage vow to our wives than our own arm?

Christ advocated cutting off an arm if it offended us that much. I never heard him say that we should cut off our wife for the same reason.

He did forgive the women caught in the act of adultery but he also told her to go sin no more too.

Thus if a man cannot serve God as a deacon or pastor its not the end of the world. As a matter of fact he can be just like Mark was - happy to be a help to a man like Paul.

How often is it that we overlook that place of service as we gaze upon the titles of office?

Desiring the office of a deacon is a good thing! Being a humble saint in the sight of God is far better.

I would much rather be a Mark or Silas than a Barnabas.

How much better to let the scriptures speak than to try and get ones way?