Seventh-day Adventists continued...

[Yeshua1]

I agree with both of those statements.

They affirm all TEN of the TEN Commandments and claim that the Sabbath commandment is still binding on all mankind as it was in Eden - but now "edited" to point to week-day-1. They also agree with calling week-day-1 the LORD's Day even though the Bible never does such a thing.

So then - You are claiming to agree with them?

In that case you agree with me on these points.

1. The Seventh-day Sabbath - Saturday began in Eden and applied to all mankind then and now.
2. The Sabbath Commandment of Exodus 20 - was for Saturday
3. The Ten Commandments are part of the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.
4. The Ten Commandments are still binding for all mankind to this very day and are included in what the Bible calls the "Commandments of God".

The only point of difference then is that - I don't think God's Law can be edited by tradition -- but if you notice carefully all the "heated debate" comes from those first four points.

Notice how often when I bring up those first 4 points the response is that Ellen White is the one promoting them.

Very "instructive"

Again, the reformed and regular baptists, save for the sabbath ones, would agree with me and disagree with you!

 

[Yeshua1]

Rebellion against God is not 'for salvation" as we probably both know.

For example - I do not believe that all Catholics are all lost because they all bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent even though this clearly violates the Commandments of God. (As I have said in the past) -- "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4:17

so then your "non essential for salvation" could be worked into a lot of scenarios trying to get all of scripture to be "non essential".

I also believe that Romans 2:13-16 - says that gentiles with no access to scripture at all - are in some cases saved because they experience the New Birth - via the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that as Christians we should ignore the Bible or should bow down before images or should not know who Christ is... Or should view all of that as "not important" for Christians.

all of your games aside "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

the text remains true no matter how many "yes no" games you would like to engage in as we probably both agree.

Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
=====================================================


Would you like me to quote Eph 2:8-10 for you again or Romans 2:4-16??

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Because as Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.


Romans 8
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Notice that in all our discussions I never say to "fine... I will believe the Bible as soon as you explain it to me




Interesting -- is that the part of the Bible you oppose?



False.

I keep quoting (as in the post and texts you just "dismissed")

Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

And we both know it.



Indeed that is pretty obvious - just as you say.

If you were more interested in conversation and less in 'gaming' we could have that sort of discussion all day long.

So what sin do we do that causes us to lose eternal life than?

 

[steaver]

No one who willfully violates his conscience can have assurance of salvation.

I have hundreds of times and not once did I doubt my salvation. The reason being is as you said....

.....my hope of Salvation is only in Christ Jesus. He is my righteousness, and my advocate and my mediator.

Once Christ has bought me, there is no one that can take me from him. Not even me, myself. I am like the bondservant described in the law who loves his master and is willing to live as His slave forever. I bear His mark, My ears are opened. IOW, an awl was driven through my ears making a permanent opening and marking me as His servant forever.

If Hell can't steal me, can I steal myself? LOL. And even if I run away, He will seek me, and take me back by force, because I am His property, and if I die under His scourge as a disobedient servant, I die His servant, not the Devil's.

 

[steaver]

It is clear these "good works" are not part of how one is saved, but rather an attribute of one's salvation, becoming God's workmanship. There simply can be no alternative take away.

Indeed that is pretty obvious - just as you say.

Finally! Amen! The teeth pulling is over!

If you were more interested in conversation and less in 'gaming' we could have that sort of discussion all day long.

Looks as though you have been the gamer all along.....if indeed you now admit your of yourself commandment keeping plays no part in your justification before God.

 

[Aaron]

I have hundreds of times and not once did I doubt my salvation. The reason being is as you said....

Are you sure you aren't mistaking license for witness?

 

[steaver]

Are you sure you aren't mistaking license for witness?

Please explain.

 

[BobRyan]

if indeed you now admit your of yourself commandment keeping plays no part in your justification before God.

you don't have a single quote from me saying that the lost simply choose to obey the Law of God and that is what saves them... and we both know it.

But you do have me quoting this --- almost daily

Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[BobRyan]

No one who willfully violates his conscience can have assurance of salvation.

Romans 8:12-16 explains how "assurance of salvation" works in the real world

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Matthew 7 Christ points out that what many call "assurance of salvation" is nothing more than presumption

 

[BobRyan]

So what sin do we do that causes us to lose eternal life than?

Matthew 18 - "Forgiveness revoked" was the example I gave.
Romans 11 - "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear.. if He did not spare them He may not spare you.. to you God's goodness if you continue in His kindness"



Matthew 18 the teaching of Christ is "I forgave you ALL that debt" - shouldn't you after having experienced FULL forgiveness have forgiven your brother?

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

If we are Christians then by definition we listen to the teaching of Christ.[/QUOTE]

Until you read the text ...

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive (GENTILE) were grafted in among them (JEWS) and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they (JEWS) were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews), He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree (i.e. - a believing gentile), and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?




"every branch IN ME"

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3...6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Christ is not in the business of taking all the lost and casting them away - rather He draws them to Himself for salvation.

The ones being cut off and cast away are the one's "IN ME" that do not bear fruit.

 

[steaver]

you don't have a single quote from me saying that the lost simply choose to obey the Law of God and that is what saves them... and we both know it.

In your world the lost cannot keep the Law of God and be saved, but the saved must keep the Law of God or become unsaved.

You cannot see a problem with that kind of thinking? Either keeping the Law of God saves or it does not. Which way do you believe?

 

[robycop3]

If you cannot engage in a Bible discussion where is the incentive to join you in a topic where you know even less??

So, are ya denying EGW wrote the things I quoted from her writings?

 

[Aaron]

Please explain.

Assurance comes from the witness of the Holy Spirit. Are you certain it's that witness, or are you clinging to an idea that in reality is merely a license to sin?

 

[utilyan]

Bob's answer is.....



And there you have it. This is why we fight the good fight against organizations which teach and preach against the grace and forgiveness of sins that is given only through faith in Jesus Christ. My wife always says to me "why do you argue with those people, you are not going to change their minds". My answer is I know only a visit by the Holy Spirit, like on a Road to Damascus event, is likely what it would take to change their minds, but I do it for those young in the faith, the vulnerable to false teaching, that I might save some of them from these enslaving, work your way to salvation, organizations.

As you can see, the SDA has no peace that their soul is guaranteed safe and sound resting in Jesus Christ alone. The only comfort they can give themselves is generated from themselves, convincing themselves they are following enough commandments which their church has told them are necessary for their "path of salvation". So where does the SDA's hope in salvation lie? It is in themselves and in the SDA church, how many commandments are they keeping, for to stop keeping the SDA Sabbath, as this SDA follower here has said, "that would not be the path of salvation - that would be rejecting the Word of God".

Abuse and misapplication of the Scriptures is rampant within these organizations. You will see them post reference after reference, flooding the board with God's precious Word, but it is done in vain, Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

So salvation is either a gift of God or it is something of yourself that you work towards. Ask yourself, which is it for you? Scripture is very clear, so be very cautious when any church or organization tells you it is anything less than a free Gift of God through faith.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
(Eph 2) Could God have said that any clearer? Therefore any Scripture which is posted to challenge this Scripture on salvation would by default have to be a deliberate abuse of God's Word and for what end? To enslave the person to their organization and build their lucrative empire.

Not everyone prioritizes salvation especially against the command of God.

Your still bickering over whether God is going to shoot you or not.

Who hears the command of God and just weighs whether it will pay out in salvation or won't do it unless there is a consequence to not doing it? A gold digger.


I could be guaranteed damned and doomed for following God's command, Sign me up! You wouldn't understand why anyone would do that would you?


"As you can see, the SDA has no peace that their soul is guaranteed safe and sound resting in Jesus Christ alone."

GOOD! because if he has no guarantee then he has MORE FAITH then you ever will. He is resting in Jesus Christ alone, you are resting on your own guarantee.

As scripture states plainly, Hope that is seen is not Hope.

Romans 8

24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

None of the apostles share your attitude. You even give yourself credit for having a "superior" faith.

You saying you have faith in Jesus is the best joke around, most especially when you point at something he tells you to do and tell us, well doing what he told us to do is nothing going to do anything for me.

 

[Aaron]

Romans 8:12-16 explains how "assurance of salvation" works in the real world

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Matthew 7 Christ points out that what many call "assurance of salvation" is nothing more than presumption

Jesus said, He will give us rest. We are told to cast all our care upon Him, for He careth for us. We cease from our own works.

Make sure you aren't making the opposite but equal error in presuming that your supposed obedience secures ANY thing. Those who have seen God abhor themselves for the stinking bags of worms they really are.

 

[utilyan]

Jesus said, He will give us rest. We are told to cast all our care upon Him, for He careth for us. We cease from our own works.

Make sure you aren't making the opposite but equal error in presuming that your supposed obedience secures ANY thing. Those who have seen God abhor themselves for the stinking bags of worms they really are.

Well if God ever wanted something done, optionally , unrequired, or that even cost a dollar, I think we can count on Bob to do it rather then present company who's concern is if it "secures ANY thing".

 

[utilyan]

This "what is in it for me" attitude. That is not Christianity.

 

[Aaron]

Well if God ever wanted something done, optionally , unrequired, or that even cost a dollar, I think we can count on Bob to do it rather then present company who's concern is if it "secures ANY thing".

Why certainly. Why not make them twice the child of hell?

 

[BobRyan]

Aaron said: ↑
No one who willfully violates his conscience can have assurance of salvation.

Romans 8:12-16 explains how "assurance of salvation" works in the real world

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Matthew 7 Christ points out that what many call "assurance of salvation" is nothing more than presumption

Jesus said, He will give us rest. We are told to cast all our care upon Him, for He careth for us.

True.

God also tells us

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made FOR Mankind"
Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" both Jews and Gentiles gather for Gospel preaching
Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

And no text says "do not keep the Bible Sabbath - for Jesus is our Sabbath"

Make sure you aren't making the opposite but equal error in presuming that your supposed obedience secures ANY thing.

I never argue that not taking God's name in vain - is how I am earning my way to heaven... I am sure you never argue for that either.

Same with all of God's Commandments.. not just that one.

 

[steaver]

Assurance comes from the witness of the Holy Spirit. Are you certain it's that witness, or are you clinging to an idea that in reality is merely a license to sin?

Oh, in other words, am I sure I am saved? Yes. I'm sure i am saved, even when I do wrong. All wrong doing is sin and even though that sin is covered by the blood as far as eternal security goes, that sin still carries consequences which I also have experienced, God calls it correction for His children. I'm sure you have experienced this too, no?

 

[steaver]

"As you can see, the SDA has no peace that their soul is guaranteed safe and sound resting in Jesus Christ alone."

GOOD! because if he has no guarantee then he has MORE FAITH then you ever will. He is resting in Jesus Christ alone, you are resting on your own guarantee.

Now that's funny!