" shacking up" and marriage in the eyes of God

[Amy.G]

He doesn't know yet. The man is supposed to tell him after church Sunday. I'm curious to see how the pastor takes it but I do know whatever he does it will be out of love.

Sounds like a loving church. You're very blessed.

 

[Revmitchell]

By the way guys and gals.....great debate! This is a hot topic in today's society and sooner or later we will have to deal with it. I think the time is coming when the majority will avoid the authorities and seek religious marriage only, whether it be legal or not. This couple in my church is a prime example.

I have decided I will accept that they are married. If they say they are married then I cannot judge that....God must decide. So far it seems God has blessed them and they produce good fruit. If he sees them living in sin I'm sure he will cut them down but I see no sign of it yet

I do not mean to sound like I am attacking you but I am seeing a pattern here. You do not like church membership and now you seem to agree with not getting married. What I am seeing is a problem with commitment. That seems to be a real phobia with you.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I do not mean to sound like I am attacking you but I am seeing a pattern here. You do not like church membership and now you seem to agree with not getting married. What I am seeing is a problem with commitment. That seems to be a real phobia with you.

I understand your conclusion. I am more keen on commitment to God rather than earthly ritual. God is what counts but paper is only paper. Commitment.....yes I am committed to Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Master and all my trust is in him. You are correct that I have become weary of the ways of man and of the world. Our government has turned its back on him so I place my trust and faith in HIM and not our laws.

On the other hand I did officially join the Church and my name is on the list. I had a discussion with the leaders about my position and my commitment to God, his word, and his son. There Church covenant was in line with Gods word so I joined and my position was respected among them. Most importantly the people Love Jesus Christ first and foremost and everything else comes second. They were willing to accept me into the flock whether my name was on the list or not because of my faith and commitment to Jesus Christ. This proved to me that this Church was putting Christ first and ritual second. I am proud to be a member with them now

No I do not agree with not getting married......I disagree that a paper issued by a man makes you married

 

[padredurand]

I understand your conclusion. I am more keen on commitment to God rather than earthly ritual. God is what counts but paper is only paper. Commitment.....yes I am committed to Jesus Christ and anything else I am weary of

On the other hand I did officially join the Church and my name is on the list. I had a discussion with the leaders about my position and my commitment to God, his word, and his son. There Church covenant was in line with Gods word so I joined and my position was respected among them.

No I do not agree with not getting married......I disagree that a paper issued by a man makes you married

The paper doesn't make you married. It acknowledges that you are. Even Adam and Eve had a wedding officiated by God and witnessed by the angels.

I have a piece of paper issued by El Paso County Colorado that says madre and I exchanged our vows 34 years ago. We've had to use it half a dozen times over the years as proof of our marriage. I doubt any of those places would've taken our word for it that we had made a lifelong committment to each other.

Our marriage is much more than just paper. It is two joining together physically, emotionally and spiritually to serve and honor God.

I'm bi-vocational and to earn my keep I drive commercially. I'm pretty good at what I do. I didn't get my driving skills because I got a piece of paper from the DMV. I had to demonstrate my ability to operate the equipment, answer a series of questions on a written exam and pass a physical. Nobody would take my word for it. If I had a roadside encounter with a state trooper the first thing he would ask for would be my license. That little government issued document is the accepted proof that I am allowed to operate the vehicle. Now that I think on it, without the license I wouldn't be working where I am. The first qualification was that I had to have a CDL. "I can drive that thing." wasn't good enough.

Your friends say they are married. Where's the proof? In our society that requires some documented evidence. They don't have it. They are shacking up.

 

[InTheLight]

To everyone that thinks it is OK to be married by a member of the clergy for religious reasons but not sanctioned by the government, i.e. no marriage license, would your method extend to other faiths? For example, if a Muslim couple were to get married under Sharia law, would you recognize it. Think about it...

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Then what about what was said in regard to the law and divorce? Is what Jesus said and what the law says not conflictive? Jesus said Infedelity....the law says you can get divorced over disagreement over food. Which one do you follow because you can't follow both they are completely different standards

The only thing that is different is what the law allows as grounds for divorce. Accepting a marriage certificate as proof of marriage is nothing more than being able to show you have followed God's law, because you have chosen to be married rather than live in sin.

By the same token, Jesus' statement that immorality (not "infidelity" which means something broadly different) is grounds for divorce simply defines for the believer what grounds he/she has for divorce. Regardless of what the state says is a valid reason.

You've only been here a few months. I've been here for 7 yrs. Believe me, in that time I have been attacked plenty!! :laugh:

Being attacked is no reason to "change your mind." As I said, words are just words, posts are just posts.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is an interesting point. It seems that there are two distinct ways of viewing marriage – as a marriage between a man and woman “ordained” by God or as a civil contract approved by the secular court.

I have to say, however, that I disagree fully with Yeshua1’s assessment that God will honor whatever the culture views as acceptable ways to marry/divorce. (There are biblical grounds one can use to divorce, but our culture allows us to simply follow what would make us happy). Just because it is OK under civil law does not mean that it is something that will be honored by God.

God instituted marriage between a man and a woman, and he gave that to ALL mankind, both saved and the unsaved, so there will be BOTH civil marriages performed by culutre recogised as being duly appointed ahents to administer that to couples, and also there will be marriage between christians , which would fall under biblcal guidelines to who to marry, if divorce permitted, can one remarry again etc...

Those who are saved fall under God and church prihibtions and standards, while those unsaved under civil courts/judges/justice of the peace etc...

So yes, do see God would say that if a marriage was disolved between unbeliver by proper appointed authority, to Him it is undone!

For God set up the governing authorities, and he also will abide by decisions they make regarding marriage in this case, as He hates divorce, but that is mainly among his covenant peoples, but permits due to "hardness of hearts" divorce among unsaved as part of maintaining society!

Alternative would be couples divorced by the state, but god stills honors tham as married, so would be continual pologomy/adultery going on!

 

[salzer mtn]

Let's start with Mr. Webster's definition of marriage:

MAR'RIAGE, n. [L.mas, maris.] The act of uniting a man and woman for life; wedlock; the legal union of a man and woman for life. Marriage is a contract both civil and religious, by which the parties engage to live together in mutual affection and fidelity, till death shall separate them. Marriage was instituted by God himself for the purpose of preventing the promiscuous intercourse of the sexes, for promoting domestic felicity,and for securing the maintenance and education of children.


There are two standards both civil and religious. Marriage exists between unbelievers, too. They are held to a civil standard. Marriage outside of the Christian context is a performance contract between two parties. When the contract is breached the union can be dissolved. Unbelievers cannot be expected to act like Christians in their marriage. They can have good, long-term relationships or ones that look like a train wreck moments after "I do."

Christians are called to honor governments established by God. Paul was commanded to honor a government that would eventually kill him. We know that the Christians, in their marriages, are held to both a godly standard and a civil standard.

For a Christian, a marriage is both legal contract and spiritual covenant. They are recognized as husband and wife within the context of their civil responsibility IE: taxes, insurances. It has been the accepted practice in this country - before she was a country - that folks would be considered married when they stood before clergy or magistrate and said their vows. The government's influence on Christian marriage is limited to the civil definition of marriage.

Christians, while upholding their civil responsibility, are called to a higher standard. Civil marriages can be dissolved for any variety of reasons. Here is what Jesus said about how godly people approach marriage:

Matthew 19:4-9 NAS77

4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5 and said, 'FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND SHALL CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE; AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?
6 "Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
7 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?"
8 He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."​

Some notes for consideration:

• • Marriage is between a man and a woman. Unbelievers fall for the lie of Satan and claim anyone can be married but that is a topic for another thread.
    
  • When a godly man and a godly woman get married God blurs the distinction between the two. They are no longer two but one flesh. Unbelievers believe they are distinct individuals who are in a legal contract.
    
  • Divorce is a result of the hardness of man's heart. Jesus clearly says that Moses allowed it but that it was not God's plan.
    
  • Immorality - the exception. For the unbeliever, adultery is a breach of contract limited to the physical and emotional. For the Christian, immorality still affects the physical and emotional but more importantly it allows a third person to invade a spiritual bond wrought by God. It is a sin against God and a sin against their own bodies.
  
  Here's the bottom line. Both the church and civil authorities - for hundreds of years on this side of the pond - expect folks to get a license and see a preacher, magistrate or a ship's captain, say their vows and listen to those words, "I now pronounce you husband and wife." to be considered married. For a Christian to claim they are married when they are not is a lie. For them to come up with a convoluted reason for not getting married like everyone else is arrogant and full of pride.

• I have read all the post thus far and I totally agree with this one.

 

[saturneptune]

In the seven times I have been married, I have only shacked up five. The last two we did not live together, so I am progressing towards that Scriptural goal. On the third marriage, I had married a Catholic, so it was really an annulment. I had to pay the bishop a fee to get the paperwork through. The only way I will ever get a 50th anniversary picture is a group photo.

On the serious side, I do not believe two people can be married in "the eyes of God" and skipped the ceremony as required by the law of each state. God commands us to obey the local law, and do not believe that is what the Lord would bless. In the first post, if the family has a good family, serves the Lord through a local church, and has all the evidence of a Christian family, why not spend a couple of hours getting married. What is the big deal?

Now, I do believe that two people can go through a marriage ceremony and not be married in the eyes of God, by living as roommates or brother and sister instead of husband and wife.

 

[padredurand]

In the seven times I have been married, I have only shacked up five. The last two we did not live together, so I am progressing towards that Scriptural goal. On the third marriage, I had married a Catholic, so it was really an annulment. I had to pay the bishop a fee to get the paperwork through. The only way I will ever get a 50th anniversary picture is a group photo.

You're probably one of those wild ones that dated outside the family, too.:tongue3:

In many places (Canada for one, eh.) folks can have two weddings: one civil and the other religious. There is no obligation for the religious ceremony but there is for the civil. That's where the marriage gets all the proper documentation, registration and what not. That is giving to Caesar what is Caesar's. Afterward the couple (legally married in the eyes of the state) head off to the church and render unto God what is God's.

As the gentleman from Lone Oak asked, "What's the big deal?" I suspect there is something in the woodpile that ain't wood. I counseled with a couple that was living together who wouldn't get legally married because she would lose a nice fat monthly check from her ex-husband if she did. That was not their first answer to my question but I have learned that if you bang around that woodpile long enough whatever is in there will come out. :thumbsup:

 

[salzer mtn]

There are many government handouts to people that shack up and have kids.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Well when the law requires you to get 666 on your forehead will you follow that too because the God appointed authorities require you to do so? I will not

When the authorities authorize killing baby's and not calling it murder will you call that ok because God appointed them? I will not. It is murder whether it is legal by mans law or not

Do you recognize marriage between two men because the law says it is lawful? I will not

The list goes on. I just don't agree that we should stand behind laws because " God appointed them". It seems that we pick and choose as Christians which ones we support. So we support the governments authority with marriage but do not support gay marriage and abortions. I think some laws are of the Devil

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Well when the law requires you to get 666 on your forehead will you follow that too because the God appointed authorities require you to do so? I will not

When that time comes, we won't be here.

 

[JohnnyReb]

When that time comes, we won't be here.

Are you sure??? If we are going to follow all the laws of a godless society and government I'm not convinced we won't be here

And you already living in a time of baby killing and it not being murder. Abortions are happening daily. Do you support the authorities who allow legal murder? I call it murder and will not accept it and believe it is law of the devil and not God

I'm not going to argue this anymore. But I want y'all to really think about this stuff. If we are going to defend submitting to authorities then we need to start marrying homosexuals in our churches and telling our young women it is ok to murder their baby's. It is law of the land that these things are lawful by the God appointed authorities. We need to stop picking sides and submit to the authorities in all things instead of what best suits our position. We cannot submit to one thing and not the rest.

Also think about this. Our authorities are no longer ELECTED by a God fearing people. They are elected by a nation that is turning atheist and anti Christ. I have a hard time believing officials elected by anti Christs who authorize murder of baby's in the womb as being appointed by God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you sure??? If we are going to follow all the laws of a godless society and government I'm not convinced we won't be here

And you already living in a time of baby killing and it not being murder. Abortions are happening daily. Do you support the authorities who allow legal murder? I call it murder and will not accept it and believe it is law of the devil and not God

marriage NOT based upon laws of man, but upon the order of God, instituted by Him for all mankind!

and as Christians, we would see marriage as necessary to have a valid relationship between a man and a woman before god!

 

[JohnnyReb]

marriage NOT based upon laws of man, but upon the order of God, instituted by Him for all mankind!

and as Christians, we would see marriage as necessary to have a valid relationship between a man and a woman before god!

Ok. But you fail to address the other points. This really goes beyond marriage and I did not expect it to. But it really opens a door to debate in regard to laws of God and laws of man when they conflict one another. At what point are authorities required in order to not be in sin....and at what point do submitting to authority lead us TO sin

 

[Gina B]

Why did you say we've been expected to get a license for "hundreds of years?" They may have started issuing licenses, but what happened before that? Common law marriages are being faded out and still exist in places, they weren't phased in.

What's more scary is that many want to phase out the concept of marriage as outdated.

 

[InTheLight]

To everyone that thinks it is OK to be married by a member of the clergy for religious reasons but not sanctioned by the government, i.e. no marriage license, would your method extend to other faiths? For example, if a Muslim couple were to get married under Sharia law, would you recognize it. Think about it...

* tumbleweeds *

 

[Revmitchell]

....I disagree that a paper issued by a man makes you married

Well there is nothing spiritual about that, there is nothing biblical about that. And there is nothing wrong biblically or any other way with our marriage format.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Well there is nothing spiritual about that, there is nothing biblical about that. And there is nothing wrong biblically or any other way with our marriage format.

Agreed. I don't nessisarily think anything is wrong with our marriage format. I only question is the peice of paper REQUIRED to have a marriage in the eyes of God. My position is as of late...No. The only thing it pleases is the authorities and obviously church leadership IMO.