Shopping on Sundays?

[Iconoclast]

Ah, I begin to see the problem:



Where do you get the idea that the Law can be separated into parts we obey and parts we don't? All scripture as scripture itself tells us is useful for instruction and reproof. But the Law is whole. You can't divide it into pieces. Go back and read Exodus again. God gave the Law as a whole identity for the children of Israel. The ENTIRE Law, ceremonial, moral, civil, was fulfilled by Christ. No one part of the Law is any more important than any other part of the law and breaking any one part of the Law results in having broken the entire thing. As James says:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You can't seperate out the 10 Commandments from the rest and say "these must still be obeyed or your salvation isn't complete". You can't even seperate out those 10 and say these are the most important, because Christ Himself said that that the two greatest commandments were to "love your God and love thy neighbor as thyself" and on those two hang the entire law and the words of the prophets.

The Law served its purpose in pointing man toward Christ, but once Christ was come, the Law now only serves as a curse.

Galations puts it this way:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
Gal 3:11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us;
.
.
.
Gal 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

I'm justified by faith. Keeping the Law doesn't make me anymore justified. That task has been accomplished by Christ. It's done.

We are saved by Jesus keeping the law that we broke, but we are not lawless.
Because the 10 commandments were added to mosaic law,does mot mean that they did not exist before or after moses......see the post to webdog,or better still, let me repost for you

Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )

 

[menageriekeeper]

There is a difference between the Law being useful to a Christian and the idea that a Christian must follow the Law in order to be obedient to God.

Divisions in the Law were made by imperfect men trying to teach grace to uneducated, illiterate people during the 1600's. I still tell new Christians who come to me looking for guidance that the 10 commandments are a good starting point. Christians shouldn't be killing, cause that doesn't show love to our neighbors. We don't pray to a statue of Christ, because He Lives! And we should take time to do nothing but worship.

This is the milk of scripture. As they learn and mature however, I expect them to learn to discern without the Law, without a list of rules, how to please the God who loves them.

I agree, there is a natural law that precedes and indeed surrounds the Law given to Moses. That natural law is followed even by those who do not know Christ.

Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);

But yet this has nothing to do with whether or not a Christian must follow certain portions of the Law given to Moses in order to be saved or even to retain our salvation. What we do, we do because we love Christ. Not because we are given a hard and fast set of rules to follow.

If YOU believe that YOU should keep Sunday as the Jews did the Sabbath, then YOU should. Perhaps there is something that you need to learn from that experience.

But I have no such conviction. If I could only worship on Sunday, there would be many days that I couldn't worship. Thank the Lord for Wednesday church! It is much easier for me to attend Wed. services. (matter of fact I have to get off this computer soon and get ready to go) You may think that I should conform to Sunday services, but, why should I conform to Sunday when the Lord has allowed Wednesday?

 

[menageriekeeper]

You do realize Iconiclast, that keeping the Sabbath includes not lighting fires on that day, right? There were whole ceremonial rules besides "no work" that had to be kept for the Jews to be obedient.

So, this division you make between moral and ceremonial, how do you divide the two and still keep "the sabbath"?

(and how do you suppose the Jews kept warm on Sunday with no fires?)

 

[sag38]

Funny, I'd take cutting the lawn anyday over what I do every Sunday. Serving as a pastor of a church is hard work most days of the week but it's especially hard on Sunday. Preaching is hard work. Teaching is hard work. Leading is hard work. By the end of the day I am worn out from my labor. How then is it that I'm not violating the law? The way I feel after a hard Sunday sometimes ought to be against the law. But, I wouldn't have it any other way. It's the best feeling in the world to be tired from serving God's people.

 

[Iconoclast]

You do realize Iconiclast, that keeping the Sabbath includes not lighting fires on that day, right? There were whole ceremonial rules besides "no work" that had to be kept for the Jews to be obedient.

So, this division you make between moral and ceremonial, how do you divide the two and still keep "the sabbath"?

(and how do you suppose the Jews kept warm on Sunday with no fires?)

Mk,
We do not keep the mosaic sabbath,which had those ceremonial laws you speak of[ the making of a fire,gathering sticks,etc].
Christians keep the Lord's day/sabbath.

7._____ As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.
( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )

In the other post you said this;

Divisions in the Law were made by imperfect men trying to teach grace to uneducated, illiterate people during the 1600's.

I still tell new Christians who come to me looking for guidance that the 10 commandments are a good starting point. Christians shouldn't be killing, cause that doesn't show love to our neighbors. We don't pray to a statue of Christ, because He Lives! And we should take time to do nothing but worship.

This is the milk of scripture. As they learn and mature however, I expect them to learn to discern without the Law, without a list of rules, how to please the God who loves them.

[/MK Paul says love is the fulfilling of the law. God is pleased when he obeys His law.22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Divisions in the Law were made by imperfect men trying to teach grace to uneducated, illiterate people during the 1600's.

I do not agree with your assesment of the reformers,or of the place of the law in the life of a believer,as I have posted several times Paul in rom13

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul appeals to the ten commandments to show how we are to love our neighbor, not that it is milk that we move away from.

8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

 

[preacher4truth]

I ask again. Iconoclast, do you believe shopping on Sunday, for yourself, is a violation of Gods or Christs commandments?

 

[Iconoclast]

Funny, I'd take cutting the lawn anyday over what I do every Sunday. Serving as a pastor of a church is hard work most days of the week but it's especially hard on Sunday. Preaching is hard work. Teaching is hard work. Leading is hard work. By the end of the day I am worn out from my labor. How then is it that I'm not violating the law? The way I feel after a hard Sunday sometimes ought to be against the law. But, I wouldn't have it any other way. It's the best feeling in the world to be tired from serving God's people.

How then is it that I'm not violating the law?

Because preaching and teaching are lawful activities on the Lords Day.

It's the best feeling in the world to be tired from serving God's people.

[/QUOTE]
Exactly, so why would you teach your people to do otherwise on the Lords day?....let them enjoy the blessing also

 

[Iconoclast]

I ask again. Iconoclast, do you believe shopping on Sunday, for yourself, is a violation of Gods or Christs commandments?

Yes........unless it is a work of necessity, or mercy.....like this

Passage results: Matthew Matthew 12
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes........unless it is a work of necessity, or mercy.....like this

Does the keeping of the commandments, assist Christ in gaining you eternal life?

 

[Iconoclast]

Does the keeping of the commandments, assist Christ in gaining you eternal life?

NO......Salvation is 100% of the Lord. It is all of grace.He alone is the perfect law keeper

21The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Yet,like Paul we shou;d say'

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Alcott]

"Necessity or mercy." Very relative, to say the least. You cite the example of the disciples harvesting and threshing on the sabbath-- would they really have starved if they had not done that? Where, exactly, is necessity? If a homeless person was hungry one Sunday, and saw a man struggling with a large package, can he offer to help carry it, in hopes of some tip, per se, to buy a sandwich? Then what if he goes to a convenience store and sees the beer on the shelf and 'can't help himself' and buys that instead. Is his Sunday labor retroactively charged as a sin? Finally, does necessity justify anything else, like stealing or lying? Since you want to put the 'Ten Commandments' up as all being valid, supposedly equally....

 

[Iconoclast]

"Necessity or mercy." Very relative, to say the least. You cite the example of the disciples harvesting and threshing on the sabbath-- would they really have starved if they had not done that? Where, exactly, is necessity? If a homeless person was hungry one Sunday, and saw a man struggling with a large package, can he offer to help carry it, in hopes of some tip, per se, to buy a sandwich? Then what if he goes to a convenience store and sees the beer on the shelf and 'can't help himself' and buys that instead. Is his Sunday labor retroactively charged as a sin? Finally, does necessity justify anything else, like stealing or lying? Since you want to put the 'Ten Commandments' up as all being valid, supposedly equally....

Alcott, I quoted Jesus teaching on this.....He is Lord of the sabbath.Are you suggesting he Himself broke the sabbath and was therefore a sinner?
Jesus gave the 10 commandments also.....if you think they are invalid you can explain your view to Him. I really do not get your post.
The absurd homeless man laboring to earn a beer??? maybe if he labored 6 days he would not have to hustle to support his alcohol need.
Using absurd arguements does not lesson the force of the original teaching you are seeking to avoid.

 

[preacher4truth]

So then, you must ask for forgiveness if you shop on Sunday, or, following Christs law, even covet to shop, which is the same?


What if you forget to ask for forgiveness, and, while shopping, die suddenly? Hell bound?


And do please list, out of the 600 plus commands, without a pat answer, as is usual, which ones you must obey, and, which ones fall by the way side to a loop hole. Do list and explain this comprehensive law.

Also, please describe how you are a Baptist, with such beliefs that cast you as under law, and not as under grace, and how your adherence to works, and law, and no true Baptist ever falling in line to the strict obedience you observe, or claim to observe, to only which Christ alone could fulfill, being contrary to Baptistic doctrine, does make for you an objective for others to follow, as a yoke of bondage, what you are conveying to them that they are thus amiss in, and what they in turn must follow.

 

[menageriekeeper]

We do not keep the mosaic sabbath,which had those ceremonial laws you speak of[ the making of a fire,gathering sticks,etc].
Christians keep the Lord's day/sabbath.

If you are going to strip the Law of its clothing, why bother keeping it?

:
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul appeals to the ten commandments to show how we are to love our neighbor, not that it is milk that we move away from.

8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Hmmm, you gotta learn to count. Paul pulls out only 6 of the 10 commandments in this passage. The important part of the passage I put in blue within your quote. Let me repeat it: He who loves another has fulfilled the law. Keeping the Sabbath has little to do with loving your neighbor, unless of course, he likes to sleep in and you mowing the lawn on Sunday disturbs him.

And again, if you aren't going to keep the Sabbath in the manner prescribed in the OT, why bother keeping it at all?

You still haven't proven scripturally that it is okay to divide the Law into catagories and only keep those you deem "moral". Was not mixing fibers within their clothing a "moral" law? Why do you consider it to "ceremonial"? There was no ceremony in the weaving of cloth.

How about food, why don't you eat "clean"? What makes you think this was only a ceremonial law?

Here's an even better one: Why do we no longer stone rebellious children? That is a clear moral law, yet we no longer follow it?

You can't pick and chose what laws you are going to follow and which you aren't. You either follow the whole or you have faith that Christ followed them all for you, in your stead and that His shed blood is sufficient. We only have two hard and fast instructions on how to live our lives in order to honor God (but not to guarentee our salvation or keep it) and those are: love God and love your neighbors. This allows for myriad of variation!

 

[Iconoclast]

So then, you must ask for forgiveness if you shop on Sunday, or, following Christs law, even covet to shop, which is the same?


What if you forget to ask for forgiveness, and, while shopping, die suddenly? Hell bound?


And do please list, out of the 600 plus commands, without a pat answer, as is usual, which ones you must obey, and, which ones fall by the way side to a loop hole. Do list and explain this comprehensive law.

Also, please describe how you are a Baptist, with such beliefs that cast you as under law, and not as under grace, and how your adherence to works, and law, and no true Baptist ever falling in line to the strict obedience you observe, or claim to observe, to only which Christ alone could fulfill, being contrary to Baptistic doctrine, does make for you an objective for others to follow, as a yoke of bondage, what you are conveying to them that they are thus amiss in, and what we in turn must follow.

Well now.....lets see what we have here.

you ask;

What if you forget to ask for forgiveness, and, while shopping, die suddenly? Hell bound?

When you asked me in the other post;

Originally Posted by preacher4truth
Does the keeping of the commandments, assist Christ in gaining you eternal life?

NO......Salvation is 100% of the Lord. It is all of grace.He alone is the perfect law keeper

What do you not understand here? When I tell you salvation is 100% grace and 100% God what are you missing? Your question shows you do not understand salvation if you are suggesting a loss of salvation.

then you say this;

And do please list, out of the 600 plus commands, without a pat answer, as is usual, which ones you must obey, and, which ones fall by the way side to a loop hole. Do list and explain this comprehensive law.

Who said anything about 600 commands? Are you talking about the law of Moses? You are not following the discussion correctly. Christians are not under the law of Moses. We are under law to Christ.

Also, please describe how you are a Baptist, with such beliefs that cast you as under law, and not as under grace,

Again....where do I say that we are not under grace? I said 2 times in the last three posts that salvation is ALL OF GRACE. Do you see it this time?
Christians are not lawless. If you have any knowledge of historic baptist beliefs you would know this is what has always been believed, by SPURGEON, BUNYAN,KEACH, DAGG,BOYCE ,STRONG. all these men believed exactly what I have posted here. Learn before you go off in ignorance, as if law and grace are enemies. You are confusing two seperate issues as if you are following an ignorant dispensational chart , the seperates an age of law, from an age of grace.

All these baptists,and many more believed exactly what I believe....and actually I could quote them on it...s o when you say this in such an arrogant fashion

and no true Baptist ever falling in line to the strict obedience you observe, or claim to observe, to only which Christ alone could fulfill, being contrary to Baptistic doctrine,

you might want to re-read this thread, or re-read some history.

The apostle Paul wrote this;
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So do you think he was bring people into bondage? [/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

If you are going to strip the Law of its clothing, why bother keeping it?




Hmmm, you gotta learn to count. Paul pulls out only 6 of the 10 commandments in this passage. The important part of the passage I put in blue within your quote. Let me repeat it: He who loves another has fulfilled the law. Keeping the Sabbath has little to do with loving your neighbor, unless of course, he likes to sleep in and you mowing the lawn on Sunday disturbs him.

And again, if you aren't going to keep the Sabbath in the manner prescribed in the OT, why bother keeping it at all?

You still haven't proven scripturally that it is okay to divide the Law into catagories and only keep those you deem "moral". Was not mixing fibers within their clothing a "moral" law? Why do you consider it to "ceremonial"? There was no ceremony in the weaving of cloth.

How about food, why don't you eat "clean"? What makes you think this was only a ceremonial law?

Here's an even better one: Why do we no longer stone rebellious children? That is a clear moral law, yet we no longer follow it?

You can't pick and chose what laws you are going to follow and which you aren't. You either follow the whole or you have faith that Christ followed them all for you, in your stead and that His shed blood is sufficient. We only have two hard and fast instructions on how to live our lives in order to honor God (but not to guarentee our salvation or keep it) and those are: love God and love your neighbors. This allows for myriad of variation!

ok.....you say;

Hmmm, you gotta learn to count. Paul pulls out only 6 of the 10 commandments in this passage.

I can count just fine.....he mentions commands from the second table of the law
Yes,because he is speaking of loving your neighbor...he appeals to commands that deal with it........Are you suggesting it is ok to not love God, or we can have other God's ....or make graven images,,,,,because Paul does not mention them here???

then you offer this;

Keeping the Sabbath has little to do with loving your neighbor

It has to do with loving God.....you do not think this is necessary??That is between you and God if you want to profane the day.

And again, if you aren't going to keep the Sabbath in the manner prescribed in the OT, why bother keeping it at all?

We are not under Moses, but under Christ
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,

then this;

You still haven't proven scripturally that it is okay to divide the Law into catagories and only keep those you deem "moral". Was not mixing fibers within their clothing a "moral" law? Why do you consider it to "ceremonial"? There was no ceremony in the weaving of cloth.

How about food, why don't you eat "clean"? What makes you think this was only a ceremonial law?

Here's an even better one: Why do we no longer stone rebellious children? That is a clear moral law, yet we no longer follow it?

Are you completely un taught about the law? Do you understand the theocracy? Do you understand this issue at all?

You asked this;

You can't pick and chose what laws you are going to follow and which you aren't.

Yes you can...and you need to pick correctly.

QuotingJames 2
10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.........has no bearing on this discussion if you understand James 2.

Nobody is suggesting law keeping......in order to be saved. NOBODY!
That is what James speaks of......but we are not. You might be, but I
am not.
When someone is saved,God makes them a law keeper. read here my antinomian friends

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

So go ahead and despise the law of God to your own peril,I will continue to ask for grace to obey.

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj68/article3.html

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj68/article1.html

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj28/article1.html

 

[Alcott]

, I quoted Jesus teaching on this.....He is Lord of the sabbath.Are you suggesting he Himself broke the sabbath and was therefore a sinner?

No, because nothing in that passage says Jesus was harvesting and threshing; only his disciples were. Remember, though, that God very specifically ordered the execution of a man who gathered firewood on the sabbath in the book of Numbers. Unless Jesus did that, or would have done that, then you know that the command has changed.

Jesus gave the 10 commandments also.....if you think they are invalid you can explain your view to Him.

Apparently you don't know that He knows my 'view' without my "explaining" it to Him. If I have left any doubt as to what that view is, it's that NT Christians are obligated only to the commands in the NT. 8 1/2 of those 'big 10' are covered in that way. The sabbath command is not repeated to NT Christians, and it is plainly stated to let no one be your judge about it, as well as to be convinced in your own mind. Otherwise, the command to not worship idols is repeated, and compounded, in the NT to not love the things of this world. But the first half of that command is not repeated-- to not make any likeness of anything which is on earth or in heaven. If that were valid, it would prohibit photography, engineering drawing, computer icons, et al. We can make likenesses, but we cannot worship them.

I really do not get your post.

If you still don't, then forget it, Clasty.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well now.....lets see what we have here.

you ask;

When you asked me in the other post;

What do you not understand here? When I tell you salvation is 100% grace and 100% God what are you missing? Your question shows you do not understand salvation if you are suggesting a loss of salvation.

then you say this;

Who said anything about 600 commands? Are you talking about the law of Moses? You are not following the discussion correctly. Christians are not under the law of Moses. We are under law to Christ.



Again....where do I say that we are not under grace? I said 2 times in the last three posts that salvation is ALL OF GRACE. Do you see it this time?
Christians are not lawless. If you have any knowledge of historic baptist beliefs you would know this is what has always been believed, by SPURGEON, BUNYAN,KEACH, DAGG,BOYCE ,STRONG. all these men believed exactly what I have posted here. Learn before you go off in ignorance, as if law and grace are enemies. You are confusing two seperate issues as if you are following an ignorant dispensational chart , the seperates an age of law, from an age of grace.

All these baptists,and many more believed exactly what I believe....and actually I could quote them on it...s o when you say this in such an arrogant fashion you might want to re-read this thread, or re-read some history.

The apostle Paul wrote this;
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So do you think he was bring people into bondage?

[/QUOTE]


Your hilarious friend. What a way to twist questions and call names. You almost make me believe you ARE a Baptist just by that. I said ALMOST though. But not quite.


Anyhow...

You absolutely did not answer any of my questions, but instead avoided them and twisted my words, and then accuse of heresy. My questions were thought out and genuine. I'm not reading the enire thread to look for your subtle errors, instead I asked them direct. Apparently, they are too direct. Spare me the "I answered you line by line" reply. No you called names and accused and avoided, line by line. Anyone can see this.

But this is typical when one is hiding true intent and beliefs.


Then to top it off you state this "Your question shows you do not understand salvation if you are suggesting a loss of salvation." in order to twist this into an accusation that I don't know anything about salvation, nor believe in eternal security, and basically try to call me an heretic. Way out of line there.

Asking a persons beliefs or questioning them, does not make the person who asked them in error (which is actually sad that you think that shallowly and used it as defense) but it certainly did shine a light on your temperment. This is a commentary on you sir, not me.

My questions are arrogant? Where? How you read anything arrogant into my genuine questions is laughable. The arrogance, sir, is stemming from you, not me.

Also, these are not all Baptist beliefs that you espouse. It's a mix of Messy and other things. Period. Judaizer, anyone?

You're on a proselytizing mission. I'm not biting.

I don't need "more" when I already have Him, and He has me.

BTW, the next time anyone asks you valid questions, leave the attack out of it. I mean, you look old enough to be mature enough to do so. And the name calling? Leave it in your heart from where it draws itself up through your lips by exercising some temperance.

That you attacked someone asking questions shows you are truly very insecure and defensive, and have much to hide.
:jesus:

 

[freeatlast]

Free,
I believe all men died in Adam[romans 5:12-21,1cor 15;22
All men being dead in Adam sin in life by nature because they are sinners.
we are also told this;
[QUOTE 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

]

So men are lost and condemned because of sin,and a satanic blindness.

Only God can save man. He has purposed to save a multitude of men in His Son. These men he has elected to salvation he calls His Sheep.

In a biblical sense"only" these sheep are lost and going to be found by the shepherd.[/QUOTE]

So are you saying that being dead in Adam is different then being lost? In other words do you believe that we are born lost because of what Adam did or we become lost when we sin?