Shopping on Sundays?

[Iconoclast]

So are you saying that being dead in Adam is different then being lost? In other words do you believe that we are born lost because of what Adam did or we become lost when we sin?
Today 08:14 AM

Free,

All men are dead in Adam.

In other words do you believe that we are born lost because of what Adam did

Yes.....

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

or we become lost when we sin?

No......we are conceived in sin,,,,we are sinners.....we sin because we are sinners

 

[Iconoclast]

Alcott

Apparently you don't know that He knows my 'view' without my "explaining" it to Him. If I have left any doubt as to what that view is, it's that NT Christians are obligated only to the commands in the NT. 8 1/2 of those 'big 10' are covered in that way. The sabbath command is not repeated to NT Christians, and it is plainly stated to let no one be your judge about it, as well as to be convinced in your own mind. Otherwise, the command to not worship idols is repeated, and compounded, in the NT to not love the things of this world. But the first half of that command is not repeated-- to not make any likeness of anything which is on earth or in heaven. If that were valid, it would prohibit photography, engineering drawing, computer icons, et al. We can make likenesses, but we cannot worship them.

I know about this position.......I do not hold that it is the historic or biblical position. As far as I know this position came about in the late 70's early eighties. Are you aware of this? Did you read Thomas Smith,and Jon Zens to come up with this? So anything not repeated in the NT is not binding on us.
Like I asked in the other post.....
The NT. does not repeat the prohibition on beastiality. Does that mean it is okay now?
in 1 cor9 Paul mentions this;

9For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Why is he mentioning OT law in the NT?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Hmmm, without doing a point by point reponse to your post #76, let me ask you a rather direct question:

If we aren't going to lose our salvation by not keeping "God's law", then what is the point of keeping it? Why bother?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hmmm, without doing a point by point reponse to your post #76, let me ask you a rather direct question:

If we aren't going to lose our salvation by not keeping "God's law", then what is the point of keeping it? Why bother?

Because God wants us to.
46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

 

[Alcott]

Did you read Thomas Smith,and Jon Zens to come up with this?

I don't even know who you are referring to here. I came up with that position completely on my own.

So anything not repeated in the NT is not binding on us.
Like I asked in the other post.....
The NT. does not repeat the prohibition on beastiality. Does that mean it is okay now?

That should come under sex outside of marriage; fornication.

in 1 cor9 Paul mentions this;
Why is he mentioning OT law in the NT?

Because it's relevant. Almost as relevant as mentioning circumsision; the latter not as an absolute requirement, as in OT, but as an unwise obligating of oneself to the "whole law." Why did he say that?

 

[freeatlast]

Hmmm, without doing a point by point reponse to your post #76, let me ask you a rather direct question:

If we aren't going to lose our salvation by not keeping "God's law", then what is the point of keeping it? Why bother?

A short answer, because He commanded it. A longer answer is that the law has no power to save. In fact the law has no power to cause someone to be lost. There has only been one law that was ever given that caused man to be lost (dead in sin) That was in Gen and in the garden.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That one law and one only is what brought all men down in Adam. Today there is no tree and no other command to bring spiritual death to man. Once we are saved and since there is no new law to bring death to us again, we cannot lose our salvation
The saved now have their hearts governed by faith and since God has told us how we should live in the moral commandments and we believe Him (faith) we strive to obey the commands.

 

[freeatlast]

Because God wants us to.
46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Let me ask you this. Why do you believe that there is absolutely no mention in NT scripture after pentacost to teach the saved to keep the Sabbath if we are to keep it today? Every other command is mentioned, but the Sabbath law is not, why?

 

[Iconoclast]

Preacher 4 truth asked;

My questions are arrogant? Where? How you read anything arrogant into my genuine questions is laughable.

lets make a list;

Your hilarious friend
What a way to twist questions and call names
You almost make me believe you ARE a Baptist
I said ALMOST though. But not quite.

You absolutely did not answer any of my questions
but instead avoided them and twisted my words
I'm not reading the enire thread to look for your subtle errors
Spare me the "I answered you line by line" reply
No you called names and accused and avoided, line by line
But this is typical when one is hiding true intent and beliefs

My questions are arrogant? Where? How you read anything arrogant into my genuine questions is laughable

(which is actually sad that you think that shallowly and used it as defense)
but it certainly did shine a light on your temperment.
This is a commentary on you sir, not me.
The arrogance, sir, is stemming from you, not me.

Also, these are not all Baptist beliefs that you espouse
It's a mix of Messy and other things. Period
Judaizer, anyone?

You're on a proselytizing mission.
I'm not biting.

you are truly very insecure and defensive, and have much to hide.

That you cannot begin to understand the answers in post 75.....has led to this pathetic drivel...You are in over your head.Your response here and to luke 2427 shows where the problem is. lets see how that went;

And now you lie about it.

I'd say unbelievable, but, no, I believe it.

Gotta put you on ignore, friend. As soon as you grow up, and someone informs me of it, then we can talk.

The plain fact that you cannot admit you're wanting to and have in fact invited me to fight physically with you (which, by the way would be an utterly foolish thing for you to attempt for many reasons) and that you have lied about it, is all a mark on your honor, and testimony, son.

opps ...trouble seems to follow you on the BB???
here are a few more edifying highlights;
The only thing fishy here is your judgmental attitude and attempt to place a question mark on my character out of pure assumption, and failure to answer your own "prosecution" questioning in light of the Biblical mandate.

Unreal.
That would be to act like many on this board. I'm certain Paul was above 3rd grade in maturity, as opposed to whom I am referring to.

By the way, do you run your mouth like this in real life, or just behind your monitor?

I should have listened to "don't feed the trolls." But only you would have seen my post as troll food, and in turn, feast upon it.

Don't waste your time with me, nor will I with you. I've seen your abrasive, caustic, know it all attitude too many times already in way too many posts, and knew immediately you are one to avoid.

Are you here to interact or to sow discord???

 

[preacher4truth]

Good ol' Iconoclast, again, taking things out of context. Slandering me. Out of context.


How utterly deceptive you are, friend.

Anyhow...

You throw a quote in, by me, asking you, (after you called me arrogant for simply asking you some valid questions) where in my questions I was arrogant.

Then in an attempt to prove I was arrogant from the post where I asked those questions, you pull something out of a post I made LATER, to prove I was arrogant in that prior post. Lie much?

Do you write for National Enquirer, too?


Yep, trouble is following me, in that you are correct. The trouble is YOU, cutting, pasting, lying, out of context. I'd say that's trouble.


I asked you direct questions. That's all. Then was called arrogant. Then you cut something out of an entirely different post to try to prove it. That's called lying.

Then you qoute me out of context, involving and to someone else, then paste it here. You're still slandering me.

Let me ask you this, friend. What does the law, you are in bondage to, say about bearing false witness? Where was the grace you need to follow the 10 commandments there, that you claim to follow so religiously, a law NO MAN can follow, which is proven in Galatians, that they were wrong in trying to keep perfect by obeying the law. You just lied about me on here to all who see this. You broke a commandment. "ooops"

I don't have to ask if you're here to sow discord. It's apparent.

- Blessings

 

[Luke2427]

So then, you must ask for forgiveness if you shop on Sunday, or, following Christs law, even covet to shop, which is the same?


What if you forget to ask for forgiveness, and, while shopping, die suddenly? Hell bound?

Iconoclast has already been clear that he believes salvation is 100% of God. What part of that don't you understand?

And do please list, out of the 600 plus commands, without a pat answer, as is usual, which ones you must obey, and, which ones fall by the way side to a loop hole. Do list and explain this comprehensive law.

Let me get this straight- you want him to make a list of hundreds of items simply to satisfy you? That is a silly, pointless request, isn't it?

Also, please describe how you are a Baptist, with such beliefs that cast you as under law, and not as under grace, and how your adherence to works, and law, and no true Baptist ever falling in line to the strict obedience you observe, or claim to observe, to only which Christ alone could fulfill, being contrary to Baptistic doctrine, does make for you an objective for others to follow, as a yoke of bondage, what you are conveying to them that they are thus amiss in, and what they in turn must follow.

MOST baptists believe that saved people love God's law. Iconoclast is not the exception- you are.

 

[Luke2427]

Good ol' Inconoclast, again, taking things out of context. Slandering me. Out of context.


How utterly deceptive you are, friend.

Anyhow...

You throw a quote in, by me, asking you, (after you called me arrogant for simply asking you some valid questions) in which I asked you to tell me where in my questions I was arrogant.

Then you attempt prove I am arrogant from the post where I asked those questions, you pull something out of a post I made LATER, to prove I was arrogant in a prior post. Lie much?

Do you write for National Enquirer, too?

I asked you direct questions. That's all. Then was called arrogant. Then you cut something out of another post to try to prove it. Lying.

Then you qoute me out of context, involving and to someone else, then paste it here. You're still slandering me. As you did in answering my questions.

Let me ask you this, friend. What does the law, you are in bondage to, say about bearing false witness?

I don't have to ask if you're here to so discord. It's apparent.

- Blessings

Iconoclast, calling someone a liar who is not is a habit of this kids.

Don't waste your time.

 

[preacher4truth]

Context

This is where Iconoclast takes me out of context:

Originally Posted by freeatlast
If your not involved then I gave an out for that, ignorance as to what is really out there and if that is the case why be upset. Just learn about it. Also I would have to wonder why if there was someone under your leadership who was stealing from the church why they were not prosecuted? That sounds fishy. However the fact is that what was mentioned is not rare. It is common and it takes place in all sizes of churches and should be exposed.

My response for being called "fishy":


Why are you so upset about this?

Also, how in the world you assumed they weren't prosecuted is just plain lame and accusatory. Typical. Eisegetical much? Same with Scriptures for you, if i may also "judge?"

Why weren't they prosecuted? Because it's Scriptural to just allow yourself rather to be defrauded. That's why.

Also, it was my duty to report said lady to the Missions clearing house, and let them handle it how they deemed just.

What does the Scriptures say? Was it also wrong for me to forgive them, or should I take your attitude a step further, being it is not Christian, and hold a grudge?

The only thing fishy here is your judgmental attitude and attempt to place a question mark on my character out of pure assumption, and failure to answer your own "prosecution" questioning in light of the Biblical mandate.

Unreal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The other is taken out of context, as well, after being attacked for telling a brother nice job, for qouting scripture. Andin turnbeing told off about it. Then to recieve private messages and an invitation to come physically fight. I could also cut and paste, but I'll pass. I'm not here to slander, but I will defend myself at times.

I'll take the high road here, Iconoclast. I could go get many quotes from you, with your name calling ways, and paste them in here, in context, not out of, as you have done. It's well known. All a person has to do is look. I just won't stoop like that and do to you what you've done to me. There is no need for me to slandder you, nor to lie about you to do it.

Revile me again, I'll just not revile or name call back.


Have a good day

 

[Luke2427]

I'll take the high road here, Iconoclast.

Too late!

..........

 

[menageriekeeper]

Whew, ya'll got to arguing off the OP didn't you?

Let's get back too it:

A longer answer is that the law has no power to save. In fact the law has no power to cause someone to be lost. There has only been one law that was ever given that caused man to be lost (dead in sin) That was in Gen and in the garden.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That one law and one only is what brought all men down in Adam. Today there is no tree and no other command to bring spiritual death to man. Once we are saved and since there is no new law to bring death to us again, we cannot lose our salvation
The saved now have their hearts governed by faith and since God has told us how we should live in the moral commandments and we believe Him (faith) we strive to obey the commands.

I'd have loved to hear Iconoclast say that, it would mean we are in agreement. Then we could discuss why/how the keeping of the Sabbath/Sunday is or is not an actual NT, "God's Law" commandment that we should keep in obedience. Which is the topic of the OP for those of you who have forgotten.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree it is better to discuss the OP. See we can agree:smilewinkgrin:

MK......I posted three articles for everyone to read on law and gospel,on another thread. They clear up many false ideas that float around concerning law /gospel.
The 10 commandments are at the heart of the gospel.

 

[preacher4truth]

Whew, ya'll got to arguing off the OP didn't you?

Let's get back too it:



I'd have loved to hear Iconoclast say that, it would mean we are in agreement. Then we could discuss why/how the keeping of the Sabbath/Sunday is or is not an actual NT, "God's Law" commandment that we should keep in obedience. Which is the topic of the OP for those of you who have forgotten.

How about we address this law, or however we would like to name it about and concerning Sunday, and also how it is an inseperable link, not being 10, but 1, and that of bearing false witness, is also included, and is also to be observed. Pretty much the bottom line is this: he broke all of the law by offending in one point, by bearing false witness against me. So making up for it on Sunday won't quite work.

:thumbs:

Also, we've all broken the law in one way or another. All of it.

Maybe when he's out trucking, he can stop on by, and we can greet one another with a holy kiss. That's biblical, aint it?

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[menageriekeeper]

The 10 commandments are at the heart of the gospel.

WHAT?

I could have sworn that Christ's death, burial and ressurection as recompense for our sin (that of rejecting God) were the heart of the gospel.

The 10 commandments, only showed how from God man had/has moved.

MK......I posted three articles for everyone to read on law and gospel,on another thread. They clear up many false ideas that float around concerning law /gospel.

nevermind, I found it.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm not going under that curse and yoke.

WHAT?

I could have sworn that Christ's death, burial and ressurection as recompense for our sin (that of rejecting God) were the heart of the gospel.

The 10 commandments, only showed how from God man had/has moved.



nevermind, I found it.

menageriekeeper, since you continue off topic of OP, I will also.

First things first, we all know that whoever is under the law is under the curse. One can preach and bear false witness, and take persons words out of context all he wants, and it won't matter what you say, it's what you do in this case that matters, and it won't help because you observe Sundays or whatever else. You've still broken the law you say you, by grace, are empowered to uphold by Christ himself. Well brother, what happened? You just broke it when you did bear false witness against me, and cut and paste out of context quotes to slander me. Again, what happened? I think somewhere in Proverbs it says whoever slanders another is a fool.

Well, here is the Scriptures on it:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Yep, you had better keep them all. Every command. Paul never told the Galatians that they were to start practicing this or that. He never even commended the Judaizers for bringing them knowledge of the law, and take off from there to teach it to them. Instead, he kept referring back to grace, and faith.


Let's not forget that it is a well known fact that these Judaizers taught Christ was not enough! That they had to add in the keeping of the law too, plus Christ, and this is absolutely no different than what Icono has been teaching. This is why Paul is so angry with the church at Galatia, they were attempting to add the practice of law to the Gospel. They do not mix.

Being under the law, attempting to make yourself perfect, or obedient to it, is to place yourself under a curse, and you better never break it one time. So no matter how you word it, and say that Christ has enabled you by the power of grace to do it all (because it is one law, not pick and choose) well, this person is plainly lying.

I won't place myself under this curse. I'm free in Christ. Icono can keep his yoke that he desires to proselytize others into and under. If you look at his posts and started threads, it is his intent. Law law law law law. Keeping this and that. Links to this and that to prove his point, which don't prove him right at all, they only prove his agenda and that he is a judaizer.

You are correct menageriekeeper. The law is not central to the cross or however he said it. But grace sure is. :thumbs:

Ever notice how those under the law, are the first ones to show plainly that they have broken it, as has icono, by slandering, and breaking the 9th commandment, in Exodus 20:16. Is this part of the curse of being under it? Bragging how you keep it, then break it by bearing false witness?


Anyhow...

Paul rebukes the Galatians for wanting to be under the weak things, which is the Law. Galatians 4:9. This warning is for all.

In 4:21 he rebukes them for even desiring or thinking about turning to it (the Law) to practice it.

In 6:12, he tells us the reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. They don't see the cross as being enough.

Final verdict? Those who deired for others to observe and keep the law don't even keep it themselves Galatians 6:13 "For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." And neither does Iconoclast keep it. He broke it bold face in front of all.

That's God's verdict. Those who say they keep it really don't nor can they.

He's under the curse of the law, to keep it all. I am not. I am under grace, and will obey the NT to not even desire to be there.


Also, notice his name shows why he is here: Iconoclast: 1: a person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions. This is his sole reason for being here. :smilewinkgrin:

- Blessings

 

[Iconoclast]

WHAT?

I could have sworn that Christ's death, burial and ressurection as recompense for our sin (that of rejecting God) were the heart of the gospel.

The 10 commandments, only showed how from God man had/has moved.



nevermind, I found it.

Mk, you said this;

] WHAT?

I could have sworn that Christ's death, burial and ressurection as recompense for our sin (that of rejecting God) were the heart of the gospel.

The gospel is good news.......what was the bad news? Why did Jesus have to die? What did the elect do to cause Jesus to have to die?Why is the death of Jesus good news for sinners? Why was Jesus perfect life and law keeping important to the gospel?

If you answer these you will not have to post

I could have sworn that Christ's death, burial and ressurection as recompense for our sin (that of rejecting God) were the heart of the gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

menageriekeeper, since you continue off topic of OP, I will also.

First things first, we all know that whoever is under the law is under the curse. One can preach and bear false witness, and take persons words out of context all he wants, and it won't matter what you say, it's what you do in this case that matters, and it won't help because you observe Sundays or whatever else. You've still broken the law you say you, by grace, are empowered to uphold by Christ himself. Well brother, what happened? You just broke it when you did bear false witness against me, and cut and paste out of context quotes to slander me. Again, what happened? I think somewhere in Proverbs it says whoever slanders another is a fool.

Well, here is the Scriptures on it:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Yep, you had better keep them all. Every command. Paul never told the Galatians that they were to start practicing this or that. He never even commended the Judaizers for bringing them knowledge of the law, and take off from there to teach it to them. Instead, he kept referring back to grace, and faith.


Let's not forget that it is a well known fact that these Judaizers taught Christ was not enough! That they had to add in the keeping of the law too, plus Christ, and this is absolutely no different than what Icono has been teaching. This is why Paul is so angry with the church at Galatia, they were attempting to add the practice of law to the Gospel. They do not mix.

Being under the law, attempting to make yourself perfect, or obedient to it, is to place yourself under a curse, and you better never break it one time. So no matter how you word it, and say that Christ has enabled you by the power of grace to do it all (because it is one law, not pick and choose) well, this person is plainly lying.

I won't place myself under this curse. I'm free in Christ. Icono can keep his yoke that he desires to proselytize others into and under. If you look at his posts and started threads, it is his intent. Law law law law law. Keeping this and that. Links to this and that to prove his point, which don't prove him right at all, they only prove his agenda and that he is a judaizer.

You are correct menageriekeeper. The law is not central to the cross or however he said it. But grace sure is. :thumbs:

Ever notice how those under the law, are the first ones to show plainly that they have broken it, as has icono, by slandering, and breaking the 9th commandment, in Exodus 20:16. Is this part of the curse of being under it? Bragging how you keep it, then break it by bearing false witness?


Anyhow...

Paul rebukes the Galatians for wanting to be under the weak things, which is the Law. Galatians 4:9. This warning is for all.

In 4:21 he rebukes them for even desiring or thinking about turning to it (the Law) to practice it.

In 6:12, he tells us the reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. They don't see the cross as being enough.

Final verdict? Those who deired for others to observe and keep the law don't even keep it themselves Galatians 6:13 "For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." And neither does Iconoclast keep it. He broke it bold face in front of all.

That's God's verdict. Those who say they keep it really don't nor can they.

He's under the curse of the law, to keep it all. I am not. I am under grace, and will obey the NT to not even desire to be there.


Also, notice his name shows why he is here: Iconoclast: 1: a person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions. This is his sole reason for being here. :smilewinkgrin:

- Blessings

To bear false witness,requires making a false statement about a person.
If anything many have tried to treat you as a believer.You seem to have a problem with everyone here.
You give no evidence of being a sheep. Your questions were answered,and as you cannot comprehend what is spoken to you, you lash out at me, luke 24, the other brother from south africa.,and others.
I quoted from an article in response to MK, you butt in and accuse me of twisting the words of scripture that the article quotes.......are you bi-polar and off your meds? Then I could understand what you are doing.
You claim to be sincere,but then ask if a person commits one sin after they are saved, and they die before asking for forgiveness would they be hell bound? You will not last long in here, because it is just a short amount of time before you make personal attacks on everyone.....they as believers will stop responding to you because of this verse.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.