Should a Christian Serve in the Military?

[StraightAndNarrow]

I just think it's kind of pathetic for someone to proclaim how little they are concerned with protecting their American freedoms, on multiple levels... the most obvious of which is that it's simply highly insulting to those who have to protect it for you at this very moment, and to those who have protected it in the past, perhaps dying while doing so. I can't believe that some of you would go so far as to hint around that these good people who do protect our freedoms cannot possibly be a Christian.

We're not fighting in Iraq for our freedom. I don't understand how you can say this. If Iraq had not been invaded by GW Bush four years ago do you really believe that we would not be free today?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

How on this green earth do you get THIS from what I posted about soldiers witnessing where they are stationed?

Because you used their witness as a reason to go to war. I'm saying that they could have witnessed at home without going to war.

 

[bapmom]

We're not fighting in Iraq for our freedom. I don't understand how you can say this. If Iraq had not been invaded by GW Bush four years ago do you really beltieve that we would not be free today?

I for one honestly believe that if he had not there would have been more attacks on our soil. Part of the "problem" is that our war on terrorism has been so effective that it's not hitting us here at home anymore. Please please please do not construe this to mean that I wish we were getting attacked here in America still! :BangHead: K? No, I don't wish for such a thing. However, it means people like you don't realize what we were saved from.

 

[bapmom]

Because you used their witness as a reason to go to war. I'm saying that they could have witnessed at home without going to war.

alright.......I think Ive been admirably restrained with you, sir, up until now.

My word, for heaven's sake, oh my!!!!!!!!!

This is such a balderdash statement that I cannot even express myself adequately. I don't have the words without coming close to saying words that I don't use!

I did not use their witness as a reason to go to war! I cannot believe you would even seriously claim this! If you really think that's what I meant then I have serious doubts about your powers of reasoning!

 

[Ed Edwards]

What do you make of the Acts 10 story
about Centurion Cornelius?

 

[corndogggy]

We're not fighting in Iraq for our freedom. I don't understand how you can say this. If Iraq had not been invaded by GW Bush four years ago do you really believe that we would not be free today?

I believe we learned a hard lesson in WWII and that's why we're over there and have taken the actions that we have. I think we saw that we can't just let a rogue dictator build up steam and be passive about it. I mean, it was said in another post to let Kuwait fight their own fight. But, what is so different between sitting on our butts and watching Iraq invade Kuwait... and sitting on our butts while watching Hitler invade Poland? Same thing. Surely you remember what happened next. Do you want that to happen again? Surely not. That's why we jump on a perceived threat nowadays, especially when it's a potentially serious threat coming from a crazy dictator.

Why do you think we're on the edge of our seats with North Korea and Iran? Both of those are ran by a crazy dictator and they're just chomping at the bit to invade a smaller country - Israel and South Korea. Maybe we should just let them fight their own fight? Whose doorstep do you think that these guys will be knocking on next if they were to invade and crush these countries? Do you really think they're going to stop there? EVERYBODY said that Hitler wouldn't go past Poland. Wrong.

Crazy dictators simply must be stopped in their tracks when they do crazy things. Iran's next, don't worry.

With your logic, I guess we should have never fought Germany to begin with? I mean, they never attacked US soil, so I guess we should have just left them alone and let the smaller countries in Europe "fight their own fight".

 

[poncho]

one thing Ive noticed in this discussion is that some don't seem to realize a basic concept in the American soldier's mentality. They are not so much concerned with their own personal freedom. What they are thinking about is MY freedom (and yours, and every other person in America).

So yes, you can say that you don't want to join the military because you are not concerned with your own freedom. But that's not what our military men and women fight for. They fight for YOUR freedom, not their own.

You never served in "this man's army" did you? Well, I did and in my experience defending your freedoms or anyone elses were among the least motivating factors in the minds of most soldiers I met. Personally I never met anyone that said privately they volunteered to fight for freedom. Now if there was a camera around...

 

[Warhound]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the comments of some on this board lead me to believe you may be one of them.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the comments of some on this board lead me to believe you may be one of them.

While there are many disagreements on this board, all are aligned in rebuking the fruits of Fred Phelps and his church. Just because there are people who are opposed to the use of military force in Iraq does not mean we would stoop so low as to protest at any man or woman's funeral much less a military professional who gave his or her life for something he or she believed in, regardless of the disagreement with that belief. You apologized earlier for making insulting comments and now you're right back making more. Was your apology sincere or was it just a stall tactic until you could make the next one?

 

[Warhound]

While there are many disagreements on this board, all are aligned in rebuking the fruits of Fred Phelps and his church. Just because there are people who are opposed to the use of military force in Iraq does not mean we would stoop so low as to protest at any man or woman's funeral much less a military professional who gave his or her life for something he or she believed in, regardless of the disagreement with that belief. You apologized earlier for making insulting comments and now you're right back making more. Was your apology sincere or was it just a stall tactic until you could make the next one?

I did not say anyone on this board is associated with that group. I am only implying that the comments made seem similar to the message of some of the signs being held up.

I sincerely hope that there is no one on this board that would actually do this.

Since my last post there have been many more comments posted that I have not responded to. Many of them are offensive to those of us who serve, and have served. Also, it is disrespectful and offensive to imply that those who serve in combat are not Christians. This may not be what was intended, but is perceived this way. Just as you perceive that this picture is meant to be offensive to those who hold anti-military views.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I did not say anyone on this board is associated with that group. I am only implying that the comments made seem similar to the message of some of the signs being held up.

I sincerely hope that there is no one on this board that would actually do this.

You are being naive to imply it and have no foundation whatsoever for the implication. It would be akin to me saying you had something to do with My Lai.

Since my last post there have been many more comments posted that I have not responded to. Many of them are offensive to those of us who serve, and have served. Also, it is disrespectful and offensive to imply that those who serve in combat are not Christians. This may not be what was intended, but is perceived this way. Just as you perceive that this picture is meant to be offensive to those who hold anti-military views.

Address the posts that are offensive and make an argument.

 

[Ed Edwards]

What do you make of the Acts 10 story
about Centurion Cornelius?

Colonel Cornelius of the Roman Empire Army was the
key gentile convert that opened the Kingdom of God
to gentiles.

I had a friend that went to Navigator School for the
Navy, to become a Navy aircraft navigator.
That lead to an officer (I met him at college where
the Navy was paying his way). He joined a church
where they taught that an officer couldn't get saved
(He sure seemed to be saved when I went out
witnessing to the lost with him).

 

[Warhound]

You are being naive to imply it and have no foundation whatsoever for the implication. It would be akin to me saying you had something to do with My Lai.

Address the posts that are offensive and make an argument.

I said that it could be perceived. Since you want me to address the posts, I will address many of them.



Do you really believe that soldiers carry the gospel as they kill their enemies? I don't accept that view.

Could be perceived as implying: Could imply, soldiers cannot spread the gospel in war. Or, soldiers are not Christians because the kill.

I knew many Christians who witnessed while in the military, as well as on deployments. One man joined the military to serve as a missionary to Germany. While there he learned to speak German, bought German gospel tracks, and went out and witnessed to many.



By far the majority of the deaths in Iraq are innocent Iraqi civilians. Hundreds of thousands vs. 30K Americans.

Could be perceived as implying that because many Iraqi civilians have died, soldiers are evil. Not true, God commanded to kill women, children, and animals.



Do you believe in the sanctity of life or just in sanctity of the life of the unborn?

Seems to be implying that soldiers who kill in combat do not believe in the sanctity of life.



They are showing them acts of kindness by killing them? The scripture I quoted said to do good to those who hate US, not the other way around. Do you understand?

This seems to imply that soldiers in combat cannot be Christian because they must kill some of their enemy. This is not true, many soldiers who kill the enemy do it in self defense or in defense of their fellow soldiers. Many others, are good and faithful Christians who serve Christ 365 days of the year.



I would agree that if God commanded us to fight we should.

This seems to imply that God has not commanded us to fight. How can you speak for God? Is He required to tell you everything He decides? How do you know He didn’t command our commander in chief to go to war?



If and when they institute a draft and if and when they call my name, I will go to jail in defense of the Constitution before I will go to war to continue to tear the Constitution down.

This implies that everyone who goes to war is not defending the constitution. While your at it, shouldn’t your refuse to pay all taxes as well? Isn’t your tax money helping kill Iraqi’s? Or maybe you don’t. If that is true, I apologize for implying that you do.



More importantly, killing according to the Holy Bible, is forbidden and just because they slap a uniform on you and you get to call it "war" and you're just following orders, does not mean you won't be held to account for the blood spilled by your hands.

That is a flat out lie, and an insult. That is offensive. This implies that all soldiers who kill in combat are murderers. I do not believe one who would continue in murder to be a Christian, so I must assume that you are saying that soldiers who go to combat cannot be Christians.



You are not saving my life by killing one Iraqi or one Afghani, please do not connect me to these murders for I have repented of having ever supported this authorized use of force.

Once again, killing in combat is referred to as murder. This view of our soldiers is disgusting. Murderers deserve to die. Phelps and his gang thank God for dead soldiers, and this comment states that they deserve to die. Why is it naïve to make any connection?



It must also be said that I striving to grow to the point where I am concerned very little with protecting my freedom as an American citizen and more concerned with responding to my spiritual responsibility as a Kingdom of God citizen. Not there yet but hopefully getting closer.


I could perceive this statement to be saying that those who are concerned with freedom as an American citizen cannot be concerned with their spiritual responsibility.



That being said, I can't necessarily get to where God wants me if being an American is more important to me then being a Christian.

This could imply that soldiers believe that being an American is more important to them than being a Christian. True with some, but not all.



I thought the bumper sticker said "Real men love Jesus". Now it should read "Real men kill Iraqis"? If there are real men fighting for our freedom in Iraq what about the women that are dying over there? Does that make them real men too?

No, but it makes them honorable people. Does that bumper sticker mean that women who love Jesus are real men too?



My sorry self requests that you define "freedom" and define how our standing army is protecting that "freedom".

Implying that our standing army does not protect freedom is an insult. The United States has the best army in the world. And they are protecting your very right to express your opinions. Do you think Korea or China wouldn’t love to walk right over this country? Or that Iran or Syria wouldn’t love to drop and Nuke on every major city in America? Then that is how the standing army is protecting that freedom.



I've never heard "Peace through killing 200,000-600,000 Iraqi's and 3,000-5,000 American soldiers and maiming 10s of thousands of American soldiers all because of a nation that neither attacked us nor threatened to do so." This is a new peace theory to me.

This is an insult to those who have died, stating basically that they died for nothing. It may be nothing to you, but it was what they believed in.



So while it is not in me to ever put myself in the situation were I would be expected to take a life. I do love and pray for our solders often. But I do have to admit I pray for our enemies also.

I could perceive this to mean that you pray that our enemies are successful in killing Americans. I do not believe that is what you meant.



Which is more important, obedience to God or to America?

This could be implying that no American soldier is being obedient to God.



Beyond that the little nation state of Kuwait had plenty of resources to build up there own defense without needing the UN Cop to intervene on their behalf. Since I love freedom, more than entangling alliances, I would say let Kuwait fight their own fights.

We could have let Kuwait fight their own fights, but that wouldn’t be very neighborly.



Are you saying that these soldiers wound not attend church in their home town? I would agree that a war is a good situation for evangelizing but so is Main Street and the second situation doesn't involve taking other human beings lives.

This statement could be implying that those who choose to serve in the military are not following God’s will by being where they are, even though they feel they are. Who are you to decide?



We're not fighting in Iraq for our freedom. I don't understand how you can say this. If Iraq had not been invaded by GW Bush four years ago do you really believe that we would not be free today?

What does it matter what we believe? You do not know what situation we would be in if we never invaded Iraq. To imply that nothing good has been accomplished is an insult to those who have served there. The soldiers and veterans I talk to all state there is much good that has been accomplished, and they believe that we are free from attacks by terrorist and nations because we served. Most of them, do not believe we should pull out. Who is in a better situation to make that statement, you or those who have been there?



Because you used their witness as a reason to go to war. I'm saying that they could have witnessed at home without going to war.

Because they could have witnessed at home does not mean that they are not in God’s will now, nor that they are not witnessing there.



You never served in "this man's army" did you? Well, I did and in my experience defending your freedoms or anyone elses were among the least motivating factors in the minds of most soldiers I met. Personally I never met anyone that said privately they volunteered to fight for freedom. Now if there was a camera around...


I did serve, and I still do, and I know many who enlisted to fight for freedom. I think of Pat Tillman for one and many other that I know about. Several from my home town had good paying jobs that they left to serve in the military. Every soldier that joins today’s military knows that they are going to be asked to fight. They do it. It is insulting for someone to imply that they did not volunteer to fight.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I did serve, and I still do, and I know many who enlisted to fight for freedom. I think of Pat Tillman for one and many other that I know about. Several from my home town had good paying jobs that they left to serve in the military. Every soldier that joins today’s military knows that they are going to be asked to fight. They do it. It is insulting for someone to imply that they did not volunteer to fight.

There is much in your post to address and I'll try to respond to a few more as time allows and I'll take your last one first.

Back when I was into sports idolatry, I lived in Arizona and was a fan of the most inept sports franchise in the history of sports (save for another local team I loved, the Phoenix Coyotes) known as the Arizona Cardinals. Pat Tillman was very popular in Arizona as a player and his decision to serve his country and turn his back on wealth continues to be one of the most inspirational stories in my lifetime. However, I expect you are likely aware of Pat's demise at the hands of friendly fire and the military's subsequent cover-up and propagandizing of his death. I continue to hold Pat in great esteem and he will always have a place of honor in my heart for his sacrifice for what he believed to be right. There is something right about the Tillman blood for there is another Tillman that has served his country honorably named Kevin Tillman. Kevin was in the arena fighting the fight in arms but also fighting the fight with intellect, as he has questioned the behavior of the leadership that has placed our soldiers in harms way, and are partially to greatly responsible for the death of Pat Tillman. If you have not read it already, I implore you to read After Pat's Birthday by Kevin Tillman. I would look forward any comments you might have about the piece.

 

[corndogggy]

More importantly, killing according to the Holy Bible, is forbidden and just because they slap a uniform on you and you get to call it "war" and you're just following orders, does not mean you won't be held to account for the blood spilled by your hands.

Not sure who you were quoting exactly, but you know, the original Hebrew text actually said "do not kill he who is judicially innocent". Killing isn't all the same no matter what the situation.

 

[corndogggy]

Why is it that I get the feeling that this whole thread is yet another one of those infamous threads around here that shows that people are so concerned with how everybody but them is going to hell?

I mean, if you guys really believed what you are spouting off, why aren't you down at the army bases witnessing to the soldiers and trying to get them to not re-enlist?

It's like many of you here don't really want to do anything about the people who you're talking about, whether you're talking about being in the army, or drinking any form of alcohol, or remarrying, or whatever... you just want to feel smug about how those people are doing bad things and not being a Christian because it's something that you don't do. If I had seen this once or twice I'd feel differently, but even if I disappear for a month or two and come back, this same kind of mess is being debated.

Why is it that I never hear a "well I do this, am I bad?" It's ALWAYS about other people doing stuff that you don't do. Why is that?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Why is it that I get the feeling that this whole thread is yet another one of those infamous threads around here that shows that people are so concerned with how everybody but them is going to hell?

I believe you are the first to mention hell in this thread.

I mean, if you guys really believed what you are spouting off, why aren't you down at the army bases witnessing to the soldiers and trying to get them to not re-enlist?

I don't go to recruiting offices but I have witnessed to soldiers on the streets of Texas, and I've tried to communicate this message to the dogs of war on this board, does this now make my arguments more valid?

It's like many of you here don't really want to do anything about the people who you're talking about, whether you're talking about being in the army, or drinking any form of alcohol, or remarrying, or whatever... you just want to feel smug about how those people are doing bad things and not being a Christian because it's something that you don't do.

I am a Christian who thinks that killing, according to the Bible is wrong, thus I preach against it. While war may be just, the use of military force in the case of Iraq is unjust.

If I had seen this once or twice I'd feel differently, but even if I disappear for a month or two and come back, this same kind of mess is being debated.

That would likely be because in one or two months there will still be Americans, Middle Easterners and Central Asians dying. It's the same reason the abortion mess is still being debated, when it is ended it won't be a topic of discussion.

Why is it that I never hear a "well I do this, am I bad?" It's ALWAYS about other people doing stuff that you don't do. Why is that?

I eat too much.

 

[go2church]

To be clear, serving in the military is a personal choice. You are not evil for serving nor are you evil for not serving. We must each one of us, be directed by the dictates of our own conscience in this matter. I'm not sure how the Iraq war fits into this, that seems to be a different topic of conversation to me. Though I was not allowed to serve, I am pretty sure they don't still don't ask your opinion on matters once you enlist, so if the powers that be decide you go to war, you go to war.

 

[corndogggy]

I don't go to recruiting offices but I have witnessed to soldiers on the streets of Texas, and I've tried to communicate this message to the dogs of war on this board, does this now make my arguments more valid?

Did you tell those soldiers that their way of life is wrong? I'd love to see that if you did. I'm assuming you addressed them just as you would any other person, as you should.

Chatting here on a board doesn't count.

 

[Steven2006]

Why is it that I get the feeling that this whole thread is yet another one of those infamous threads around here that shows that people are so concerned with how everybody but them is going to hell?

I mean, if you guys really believed what you are spouting off, why aren't you down at the army bases witnessing to the soldiers and trying to get them to not re-enlist?

It's like many of you here don't really want to do anything about the people who you're talking about, whether you're talking about being in the army, or drinking any form of alcohol, or remarrying, or whatever... you just want to feel smug about how those people are doing bad things and not being a Christian because it's something that you don't do. If I had seen this once or twice I'd feel differently, but even if I disappear for a month or two and come back, this same kind of mess is being debated.

Why is it that I never hear a "well I do this, am I bad?" It's ALWAYS about other people doing stuff that you don't do. Why is that?

Nobody started this thread in judgment of anyone else. A young man asked the question, " Should a Christian serve in the military" he then said he would "like to hear others opinions" Why is it such a problem for those that would encourage him to enlist to let people with the other view on the subject to express their views. I would assume he had some concern or would not have posted the question. I would also assume he would appreciate to hear views from both sides of the question. I would recommend that if it is too personal a subject for you or anyone else to discuss without getting upset it would be better to refrain from the thread. The thread should be about helping to answer his questions, I fail to see where people getting so upset or even angry helps to serve that purpose.