Should Christians Hold to any form of Theistic Evolution then?

[JesusFan]

Very new to us indeed. Most of us actually believe that God said what is physically, spiritually, morally, accurate. Most of us believe that the Bible is God’s word and not a collection of religious ideas. Most of us are not used to the idea of doubting God. Might I add that that is not a good habit to get into. It is the very opposite of faith by which we are told is necessary to please God. It is also very telling to me that at the same time we are told that we need faith to please God, the beginning of the world is mentioned and only understood by faith. Heb. 11
But you have to believe the Bible to agree with it. For all the people who want science to take the lead and tell the Creator how it works and how it was made, this is not living by faith.
No, I’m not interested in doubting God. It may sound foolish to you. I wouldn’t be surprised.

It will "introduce" to the liberal and critical mindset so prevalent in modern Scholarship concerning Genesis, as the Historical account view of literal describing what happened now goes into myth, symbolism, metaphor anything to deny that we have recorded down to us actually literal History from God

 

[Ben1445]

It will "introduce" to the liberal and critical mindset so prevalent in modern Scholarship concerning Genesis, as the Historical account view of literal describing what happened now goes into myth, symbolism, metaphor anything to deny that we have recorded down to us actually literal History from God

I just don’t understand how people can say they believe God and without taking another breath say that they don’t. They have fooled themselves by thinking they affirm God’s Word while denying what it says.

 

[JesusFan]

I just don’t understand how people can say they believe God and without taking another breath say that they don’t. They have fooled themselves by thinking they affirm God’s Word while denying what it says.

Jesus Himself affirmed a literal Adam and Ever, a literal Fall, so why do many seem to deny it? Unless they are smarter the Jesus in this area, which seems far fetched as he was around back then and was the Creator?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Very new to us indeed. Most of us actually believe that God said what is physically, spiritually, morally, accurate. Most of us believe that the Bible is God’s word and not a collection of religious ideas. Most of us are not used to the idea of doubting God. Might I add that that is not a good habit to get into. It is the very opposite of faith by which we are told is necessary to please God. It is also very telling to me that at the same time we are told that we need faith to please God, the beginning of the world is mentioned and only understood by faith. Heb. 11
But you have to believe the Bible to agree with it. For all the people who want science to take the lead and tell the Creator how it works and how it was made, this is not living by faith.
No, I’m not interested in doubting God. It may sound foolish to you. I wouldn’t be surprised.

Should we believe what God has said, or what Ben is saying? They are vastly different, and since there is nothing more important to me than the truth, I believe what God has said.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Very new to us indeed. Most of us actually believe that God said what is physically, spiritually, morally, accurate. Most of us believe that the Bible is God’s word and not a collection of religious ideas. Most of us are not used to the idea of doubting God. Might I add that that is not a good habit to get into. It is the very opposite of faith by which we are told is necessary to please God. It is also very telling to me that at the same time we are told that we need faith to please God, the beginning of the world is mentioned and only understood by faith. Heb. 11
But you have to believe the Bible to agree with it. For all the people who want science to take the lead and tell the Creator how it works and how it was made, this is not living by faith.
No, I’m not interested in doubting God. It may sound foolish to you. I wouldn’t be surprised.

It is painfully obvious that you have not read either commentary and that you are not at all familiar with Claus Westermann or Kenneth Mathews.

 

[Ben1445]

Should we believe what God has said, or what Ben is saying? They are vastly different, and since there is nothing more important to me than the truth, I believe what God has said.

Not if you deny the beginning of Genesis as Historically accurate.

 

[Ben1445]

It is painfully obvious that you have not read either commentary and that you are not at all familiar with Claus Westermann or Kenneth Mathews.

True. It may also be that I don’t know what you are trying to say.
Would you mind telling me again since I must have misunderstood your post. But reading it again, I don’t think I did.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Not if you deny the beginning of Genesis as Historically accurate.

Of course, I deny it—and so did the Church as a whole deny it until 1961.

Some ancient Jewish rabbis continued to believe into the 8th century A.D. that Genesis 1-11 was an accurate, literal account of actual historic events. Ancient Christian scholars, however, were writing at least as early as the first half of the third century A.D. that Genesis 1-11 is not and could not possibly be a literal account of any events. Saint Augustine (November 13, 354 – August 28, 430) spent much of his Christian life attempting to reconcile the observable world that God had created with a literal interpretation of Genesis. Late in his life, he published a two-volume work on Genesis 1-4 with the title De Genesi ad litteram (Literal Meaning of Genesis) in which he wrote that that he had not succeeded in his endeavor. See also the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Old Testament, Volume 1 on Genesis 1-11 in which numerous ancient Christians are quoted in context to reveal their non-literal interpretations of the passages of Genesis that were of special interest to them.

With the publication of De Genesi ad litteram, the issue of the literalness of Genesis 1-11 was essentially set aside until 1961 when two men raised it to the forefront of a new movement called Young Earth Creationism. One of these men did not know even so much as the first three letters of the Hebrew alphabet and had never earned even so much as an A.A. degree from a junior college in any field of the natural sciences. The other man had studied geology and paleontology for one year but changed the focus of his studies to ancient and European history and graduated in 1948 from Princeton University. He then enrolled at Grace Theological Seminary and in 1951 he completed a course of study for a B.D. Together, these two men authored a book with the title, The Genesis Flood. Although academicians viewed it as rubbish, Christian fundamentalists with a very limited education have believed every word of it without ever fact checking it.

Do you believe that God’s creation of the earth in Genesis is an accurate, literal account of actual historic events where the Bible expressly portrays God creating a flat earth covered with a dome that had real, literal windows in it that God literally opened to allow the celestial floodwaters to fall to the earth contributing to the flood?

Every word in the Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11 is to be understood literally. The windows were real windows in a solid structure. On page 21 of his commentary on Genesis, the late John Skinner, Principal and Professor of Old Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, writes,

6-8 Second Work: The Firmament.—The second fiat calls into existence a firmament, whose function is to divide the primeval waters into an upper and lower ocean, leaving a space between as the theater of further creative developments. The “firmament” is the dome of heaven, which to the ancients was no optical illusion, but a material structure, sometimes compared to an “upper chamber” (Ps. 104:12, Am 9:6) supported by “pillars” (Jb 26:11), and resembling in its surface a “molten mirror” (Jb 37:18). Above this are the heavenly waters, from which the rain descends through “windows” or “doors” (Gn 7:11, 8:2, 2 Ki 7:2, 19) opened and shut by God at His pleasure (Ps 78:23).

However, hundreds of years earlier, the first five books of the Tanakh were translated into Greek giving us the first part of the Septuagint. In the Septuagint, Genesis 1:6-8 reads,

Gen. 1:6. Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
7. καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
8. καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

The Greek word στερέωμα is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ, and expresses the concept of “the sky as a supporting structure, the firmament.” (BDAG, the italics are theirs). This Greek word is also found in Paul’s writings to express the concept of a “state or condition of firm commitment, firmness, steadfastness” (BDAG, the italics are theirs),

Col. 2.5. εἰ γὰρ καὶ τῇ σαρκὶ ἄπειμι, ἀλλὰ τῷ πνεύματι σὺν ὑμῖν εἰμι, χαίρων καὶ βλέπων ὑμῶν τὴν τάξιν καὶ τὸ στερέωμα τῆς εἰς Χριστὸν πίστεως ὑμῶν. (NA28)

Col. 2.5. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (NRSV)

The Greek word στερέωμα is also found in a number of other ancient Greek writings where it always expresses the concepts of something solid, strength, firmness or steadfastness. Indeed, all hands (even the folks at Answers in Genesis!) freely admit that this Greek word expresses in Genesis the concept of a ‘solid, supporting structure.’

The Septuagint was the Bible of the Early Church until it was superseded by the Latin Vulgate. And, of course, what really matters is the choice of words used by the writers who penned the Tanakh—they used the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ that expresses the concept of the solid dome over the flat earth. For an excellent study of the first eleven chapters of Genesis as God gave them to us in the Hebrew language, please see the following:

Westermann, Clause. Genesis 1 - 11, German orig. 1972 (English translation by John J. Scullion, 1984 in the Continental Commentaries series, 646 pages).

 

[Ben1445]

Of course, I deny it—and so did the Church as a whole deny it until 1961.

Some ancient Jewish rabbis continued to believe into the 8th century A.D. that Genesis 1-11 was an accurate, literal account of actual historic events. Ancient Christian scholars, however, were writing at least as early as the first half of the third century A.D. that Genesis 1-11 is not and could not possibly be a literal account of any events. Saint Augustine (November 13, 354 – August 28, 430) spent much of his Christian life attempting to reconcile the observable world that God had created with a literal interpretation of Genesis. Late in his life, he published a two-volume work on Genesis 1-4 with the title De Genesi ad litteram (Literal Meaning of Genesis) in which he wrote that that he had not succeeded in his endeavor. See also the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Old Testament, Volume 1 on Genesis 1-11 in which numerous ancient Christians are quoted in context to reveal their non-literal interpretations of the passages of Genesis that were of special interest to them.

With the publication of De Genesi ad litteram, the issue of the literalness of Genesis 1-11 was essentially set aside until 1961 when two men raised it to the forefront of a new movement called Young Earth Creationism. One of these men did not know even so much as the first three letters of the Hebrew alphabet and had never earned even so much as an A.A. degree from a junior college in any field of the natural sciences. The other man had studied geology and paleontology for one year but changed the focus of his studies to ancient and European history and graduated in 1948 from Princeton University. He then enrolled at Grace Theological Seminary and in 1951 he completed a course of study for a B.D. Together, these two men authored a book with the title, The Genesis Flood. Although academicians viewed it as rubbish, Christian fundamentalists with a very limited education have believed every word of it without ever fact checking it.

Do you believe that God’s creation of the earth in Genesis is an accurate, literal account of actual historic events where the Bible expressly portrays God creating a flat earth covered with a dome that had real, literal windows in it that God literally opened to allow the celestial floodwaters to fall to the earth contributing to the flood?

Every word in the Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11 is to be understood literally. The windows were real windows in a solid structure. On page 21 of his commentary on Genesis, the late John Skinner, Principal and Professor of Old Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, writes,

6-8 Second Work: The Firmament.—The second fiat calls into existence a firmament, whose function is to divide the primeval waters into an upper and lower ocean, leaving a space between as the theater of further creative developments. The “firmament” is the dome of heaven, which to the ancients was no optical illusion, but a material structure, sometimes compared to an “upper chamber” (Ps. 104:12, Am 9:6) supported by “pillars” (Jb 26:11), and resembling in its surface a “molten mirror” (Jb 37:18). Above this are the heavenly waters, from which the rain descends through “windows” or “doors” (Gn 7:11, 8:2, 2 Ki 7:2, 19) opened and shut by God at His pleasure (Ps 78:23).

However, hundreds of years earlier, the first five books of the Tanakh were translated into Greek giving us the first part of the Septuagint. In the Septuagint, Genesis 1:6-8 reads,

Gen. 1:6. Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
7. καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
8. καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

The Greek word στερέωμα is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ, and expresses the concept of “the sky as a supporting structure, the firmament.” (BDAG, the italics are theirs). This Greek word is also found in Paul’s writings to express the concept of a “state or condition of firm commitment, firmness, steadfastness” (BDAG, the italics are theirs),

Col. 2.5. εἰ γὰρ καὶ τῇ σαρκὶ ἄπειμι, ἀλλὰ τῷ πνεύματι σὺν ὑμῖν εἰμι, χαίρων καὶ βλέπων ὑμῶν τὴν τάξιν καὶ τὸ στερέωμα τῆς εἰς Χριστὸν πίστεως ὑμῶν. (NA28)

Col. 2.5. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (NRSV)

The Greek word στερέωμα is also found in a number of other ancient Greek writings where it always expresses the concepts of something solid, strength, firmness or steadfastness. Indeed, all hands (even the folks at Answers in Genesis!) freely admit that this Greek word expresses in Genesis the concept of a ‘solid, supporting structure.’

The Septuagint was the Bible of the Early Church until it was superseded by the Latin Vulgate. And, of course, what really matters is the choice of words used by the writers who penned the Tanakh—they used the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ that expresses the concept of the solid dome over the flat earth. For an excellent study of the first eleven chapters of Genesis as God gave them to us in the Hebrew language, please see the following:

Westermann, Clause. Genesis 1 - 11, German orig. 1972 (English translation by John J. Scullion, 1984 in the Continental Commentaries series, 646 pages).

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Literal days, from which the teaching of resting on the seventh day came. It was not about resting for the seventh era.

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Yes, I recognize that creation is not directly what Jesus was talking about but it is the same principle. To deny the Bible is true is foolish.

Romans 1:22-25
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:22-21
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

But you don’t have any reason to believe any of this. I’m clearly not the person for you to receive this from. I hope you figure it out before you have a face to face with your Creator. You can keep your profession of wisdom. It is foolishness to God. It’s true, I don’t know or understand what Matthews wrote. But it is painfully obvious that you don’t know or understand what God wrote. I never was a great fan of Augustine myself (Not that he never wrote anything good.) But I prefer to study those who keep company with God.
For clarification, when I say I hope you will be prepared to meet your Creator, I don’t mean the natural sciences you have elevated beyond God.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Literal days, from which the teaching of resting on the seventh day came. It was not about resting for the seventh era.

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Yes, I recognize that creation is not directly what Jesus was talking about but it is the same principle. To deny the Bible is true is foolish.

Romans 1:22-25
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:22-21
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

But you don’t have any reason to believe any of this. I’m clearly not the person for you to receive this from. I hope you figure it out before you have a face to face with your Creator. You can keep your profession of wisdom. It is foolishness to God. It’s true, I don’t know or understand what Matthews wrote. But it is painfully obvious that you don’t know or understand what God wrote. I never was a great fan of Augustine myself (Not that he never wrote anything good.) But I prefer to study those who keep company with God.
For clarification, when I say I hope you will be prepared to meet your Creator, I don’t mean the natural sciences you have elevated beyond God.

I quoted directly from the Scriptures and you blew them off just as do the Jehovah’s Witnesses when presented with the truth. And even worse than the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you accuse me of not believing the Bible, which I obvious do believe—even enough to actually study it in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. But you….


Back to the Bible,

Gen. 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (KJV)

The Hebrew Masoretic text of Genesis 1:6-8 expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

1:6 ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃

1:7 ויעשׂ אלהים את־הרקיע ויבדל בין המים אשׁר מתחת לרקיע ובין המים אשׁר מעל לרקיע ויהי־כן׃

1:8 ויקרא אלהים לרקיע שׁמים ויהי־ערב ויהי־בקר יום שׁני׃​

The Septuagint also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
Gen 1:7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
Gen 1:8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

The Latin Vulgate also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

6. dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis
7. et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas quae erant sub firmamento ab his quae erant super firmamentum et factum est ita
8. vocavitque Deus firmamentum caelum et factum est vespere et mane dies secundus

The Wycliffe Bible also expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

6 And God seide, The firmament be maad in the myddis of watris, and departe watrisfro watris.
7And God made the firmament, and departide the watristhat weren vndurthe firmament fro these watris that weren on the firmament; and it was don so.
8 And God clepide the firmament, heuene. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, the secounde dai.

The Wycliffe Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate and hence used the word ‘firmament’. This word comes to us from the Latin word firmamentum which literally express the concept “that which strengthens or supports”. In Genesis 1:6-8, the word expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome.

The NRSV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “dome.” The evidence for the correctness of this translation is found in the use of this word in ancient Hebrew literature. Based upon this usage, the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver, and Briggs published by Oxford University gives us the following meaning of it in Gen. 1:6, 7, and 8, “the vault of heaven, or ‘firmament,’ regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting ‘waters’ above it.” (p. 956)

The KJV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “firmament”, but most modern readers of the KJV are unaware of the meaning of the word “firmament,” and do not realize that it came down to us from the Latin present active infinitive (firmāre) of the Latin verb firmō, meaning “I make firm, strengthen, harden, or fortify” and that it expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome.

By the way, the KJV is a revision of the Bishop’s Bible (as stated in the original preface of the KJV).

Gen 1:6. And God said: let there be a firmament betwene the waters, and let it make a diuision betwene waters and waters. (Bishop’s Bible, 1568)

The Geneva Bible also used the word firmament,

Gen 1:6. Againe God saide, Let there be a firmament in the middes of the waters: and let it separate the waters from the waters. (Geneva Bible, 1587)

Reading Bibles that use terminology that the readers cannot understand has resulted in many very wrong interpretations. The New Revised Standard Version has become the Bible of choice among both religious and secular scholars when quoting from the Bible because it is both extremely accurate and easy to understand.