Should Christians STRONGLY support the 2ND AMENDMENT?

[Bunyon]

I don't think the early chruch was armed. A bronze sward was not an easy thing to get. And why does every mammal defend its young if it is wrong? Humans have this instinct in spades. I think God hardwired it into us. What is the difference between defending your family against a rapist, and one who happens to be a government thug.

Do you recall Abraham going out and rescuing, with weapons, lot and his family? Also, maney of the greatest Christian movements have resisited and defended themselves against persecution. Have they not?

I think the reason you can't see this is because you live in the very lucrative shadow of America and we all have it so good that the only concept we have of persecution is sitting in a cell well fed and watching HBO. It can get alot uglier than that.


Mercury, I am surprised that of the voices I have read from Canada, not one conservative among them. What Gives?

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
And why does every mammal defend its young if it is wrong? Humans have this instinct in spades.

I don't think what happens in nature and what our instincts prescribe determine morality. God has called us to a higher purpose than being merely natural, and we are more than just animals. Jesus described how people naturally loved their friends and hated their enemies, but he did not say to do likewise. Instead, he calls us to go further and do what is contrary to our nature: to love God and love our neighbour, regardless of whether that neighbour loves us in return.

What is the difference between defending your family against a rapist, and one who happens to be a government thug.

I'm surprised you mention this after appealing to our instincts. What if the rapist is following his instincts? Anyway, I personally don't believe in violent defence in either situation. Resistance, yes, but not violent resistance. I'm well aware that I hold a minority view on that.

Do you recall Abraham going out and rescuing, with weapons, lot and his family?

Yes, I know there are many violent encounters in the Old Testament. God used Israel (and other nations) as instruments of his wrath. I don't think we can assume that we are all likewise called to be God's avenger.

Also, maney of the greatest Christian movements have resisited and defended themselves against persecution. Have they not?

No, I don't think so, and for those that did, I don't think that is what made them great.

the only concept we have of persecution is sitting in a cell well fed and watching HBO. It can get alot uglier than that.

Indeed it can. As has been mentioned by others, it was much uglier for the early church that had to deal with being made into human torches, among other horrors. What I find fascinating is that it is within those societies who do not have significant persecution that we find believers who are the most zealous about doing whatever it takes to protect their comfort.

Mercury, I am surprised that of the voices I have read from Canada, not one conservative among them. What Gives?

Small sample size.

 

[Bunyon]

----"I'm surprised you mention this after appealing to our instincts. What if the rapist is following his instincts? Anyway, I personally don't believe in violent defence in either situation. Resistance, yes, but not violent resistance. I'm well aware that I hold a minority view on that."-------------------------

Well that is only because you are assuming that all of our instincts are bad and none were put there by God. Or you are assuming that a rapist is following instinct, and all men have this instinct. I think a mother's protective intinct for her child is pure God. Don't you?

Oh, you are a mennonite! Why am I beating my head against the wall? LOL. Of course you don't believe in any resistance.


[ September 28, 2005, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Bunyon ]

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
So Texas Sky, what makes the use of weapons by a nation OK and the use of weapons by individuals Not OK?

Nothing. Christianity is all about loving not killing your neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]Not talking about killing your neighbor or mine. We're talking about shooting in self defense a violent criminal intent on doing bodily harm to a helpless one or in self defense.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I know what you DID say. And yes, many missionaries have went out from America. That doesn't mean God established it.

And just from curosity, what would it take for you to believe that God did, in fact, establish this country?

I recommend reading "The Light and the Glory" ; Peter Marshall & David Manual

Does this prove God established the USA? No, but it sure does give a convincing argument for that possibility.

"--- In this intriguing book, the authors make a persuasive case that the rays had first begun to pierce the gloom some 300 years before,when a Genoese visionary whose name literally meant "Christbearer", became convinced that God was calling him to bear the light of Christ west to undiscovered lands. This is at considerable variance with what American schoolchildren have been taught for generations - that Columbus discovered America by accident, while seeking a trade route to the Indies - and it is but the first in a continuing series of surprising discoveries the authors made, as they sought the hand of God in early American history. ---" Front flyleaf

I have just gotten into the Revolutionary war, and I am amazed at what I DID NOT KNOW about this country's history.

As to documentation, the biblography is 8 pages long.

'Course I fully realize that those who hate the USA will ignore any possibility that this book could be accurate, but then there's always "that 10%"! </font>[/QUOTE]Are you implying I "hate" the U.S.A.? *sigh*

That said, I just don't believe that God established America. Someone "being convinced" doesn't mean they are right. I realize that in your country, you equate God and Christianity with patriotism so you are going to believe that God established it. I myself, don't. But thank you for the info.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
God established every country and govenment according to the Bible.

Can you give a reference? I believe He established every government but every country? If He did, He sure didn't do it in the way you are saying He did with America...otherwise God established all the Muslim nations as well. Isaiah 40 tells us what God thinks of nations.

 

[OCC]

Bunyon said: "Mercury, I am surprised that of the voices I have read from Canada, not one conservative among them. What Gives?"

Do we have to be? Just to shock you, I'm not liberal either.

 

[Bunyon]

King James, I just don't want to go off on that tangent. But I do believe this country was established on Chrsitian prinicpals and it appears to me God had a conspicuous role in the founding of this nation. Its ok with me if you don't think so. But if you are really concerned about it, read the Light and the Glory. I recommend it also.

We must have different deffinitions of liberal.

 

[OCC]

Bunyon, we probably do have different definitions of liberal. Americans and Canadians do probably.

Your country may have been founded on Christian principles (this I question though) but we can't claim it was established by God Himself. See what I'm saying?

I would like to check out that book though. I'll see if it's at the Christian bookstore here.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Well that is only because you are assuming that all of our instincts are bad and none were put there by God. Or you are assuming that a rapist is following instinct, and all men have this instinct.

No, I don't assume all our instincts are bad, or that we all feel the same instincts to the same degree. Neither do I think our purpose is to follow all our instincts. If following our instincts were enough, God wouldn't have needed to live among us, and we wouldn't need his revelation in Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to show us how we ought to live.

I think a mother's protective intinct for her child is pure God. Don't you?

I wouldn't call it pure God (after all, God gave his son), but I do think it's generally good. It's also something that can be abused, such as a mother who always sees her child as a victim, even though other children see her child as a bully. I don't think any human instinct is pure God.

Oh, you are a mennonite! Why am I beating my head against the wall? LOL. Of course you don't believe in any resistance.

I said "Resistance, yes, but not violent resistance." In any case, half the people at my church would probably agree with your view more than mine; Anabaptists aren't as united on this as they used to be.

 

[OCC]

Mercury, any snow up there in Saskatchewan yet???

 

[Mercury]

No, give us another week at least.

 

[OCC]

LOL and about two weeks after it hits you it will blow into Windsor.

 

[Bunyon]

"(after all, God gave his son)"-----------------------------------------------------------------

Yes to save his children, God himself hung on a cross to save his chidren. The ultimate pateranl protective instinct!

 

[OCC]

I don't know if it's paternal protective instinct. If it was He would have saved everyone wouldn't He?

People may get mad at me but I think He saved us for His pleasure, His glory, etc. I don't tend to believe it was out of a paternal protective instinct. However, I am willing to be proven wrong. I would like it to be true.

 

[TexasSky]

Someone asked me what makes it right for a nation. In all honesty, I don't think God ever intended for us to spend all our time trying to kill each other - in war or otherwise. I realize that there are times in the old testament when war was condoned. However - it also said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth," but Christ said, that's wrong.

How much plainer can He be than that?

We answer to Christ.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

The point being King James that you seem to spend an inordianate amount of time and energy critisizing America when you have your own problems to deal with.You come on like you and Canada are perfect in all you see and do.
Personally I love to love my enemies it drives em crazy.
I am happy to turn the other cheek when you want to strike me but don't even dream about hurting my wife and kids for that there is no turning of the cheek.
Also just so you know Canada with it's problems is still a beautiful country with many fine people. I would even include you in that group.So amid my sarcasm I do truly love Canada it's landscape and it's people.Until the last few years I thought of Canada as a sister state.

 

[OCC]

PlainOldBill...I spend no more amount of time and energy criticizing America (which, BTW, I can do if I want) than anybody else on here. The problem you have with me is that I do it and I'm not American. Thank you for telling me how I come on though. I will have to work on that. The biggest reason I even criticize America though, is because Americans come on like they are perfect as well.

As for hurting your wife and kids...where did I say I would do that? If someone hurt my family I'd turn THEIR cheek...but would I be right in doing so?

Thank you for the compliments on my country. I've been through many states (even been through Spokane) and met many people and have given compliments about your country, even on here. I have to disagree with you though. We are our own country...but if anything we'd be a brother state.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Someone asked me what makes it right for a nation. In all honesty, I don't think God ever intended for us to spend all our time trying to kill each other - in war or otherwise. I realize that there are times in the old testament when war was condoned. However - it also said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth," but Christ said, that's wrong.

How much plainer can He be than that?

We answer to Christ.

So every American who has served in war is a murderer and a criminal?

Seriously do you believe in a Just War?

 

[OCC]

I know you weren't asking me but every PERSON (not just American) who has served in war is not a murderer and a criminal. And I myself, believe in a Just War.