Im equally perplexed by you....now knowing that you served. If you were called on by your commanding officer to kill American citizens would you fire on them?
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Should Christians strongly support the SECOND AMENDMENT?
- Thread starter ROBERTGUWAPO
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Im equally perplexed by you....now knowing that you served. If you were called on by your commanding officer to kill American citizens would you fire on them?
I'm not in now, that was over 4 years ago. My views have changed since then.
No I would not obey that order. I probably wouldn't have then either.
I don't want to give the wrong impression, I wasn't infantry or a soldier. I was an airman with a desk job and was considered "essential personnel" stateside, so I never even visited the sandbox.
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ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
So what you are basically saying is--God is on the side of Hitler and ISIS. Therefore, American soldiers who went to war against Hitler sinned against God because they used violence. Also, by your line of reasoning, the United Nations is also sinning against God by using violence against ISIS. :smilewinkgrin:
Doesn't make you a lesser mortal than those who went in-country. Thanks for putting on that uniform.
Not at all.
One, I never said that God is "on their side."
Two, the state has been given the sword by God (though Rom 13 technically is only speaking about internal policing, not international warfare). Governments can go to war and the Bible never says one way or another about it's righteousness or sinfulness. But that is not permissible for the Christian. Like Paul, I am talking about believers submitting to the government and eschewing violence, I thought you understood that.
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You're welcome.
You mean as in a republic like the US? Sure. I don't see anything in scripture prohibiting it.
From whom do you believe that right is granted?
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All governments are established by God. Even the bad ones.
I should have asked you to clarify what you meant by "right." Did you mean that it is a right as in something that all people can demand or are entitled to? Or just something that people have the right to do, in other words something that is morally permissible?
Does a people have the right to claim a God-granted right against a government (established by God, but run by men) that denies them of it?
Is a government, borne of rebellion against a regime that denies the people their right (of self-governance), legitimate?
By right I mean a moral entitlement.
Sure. But the Christian does not have the right to use violence to achieve that.
For example, the greatest right we have from God is the right to worship him as Christians. If the government decided that Christianity was illegal then I have a God given right to completely ignore what this government says and worship God anyway (Acts 5:29). However, that does not give me the right to use violence to acquire the legal permission of the government to worship. I would also say that the example of the apostles and the early church indicates that even in this situation, breaking an unjust law in order to obey God, we ought to submit to the punishment of the government if caught. Of course the same examples show that we should avoid being caught and escape if possible.
Applying this to self-governance I would see no problem with working within the current system in order to establish a republic. I have a hard time seeing self-governing as a 'moral entitlement' from God as you put it, but I freely admit I haven't really spent much time thinking about it. If it is such a thing, and it is denied by the current government (say it's a completely totalitarian regime) the Christian still does not have the right to use violence in order to establish self-governance.
Good question. Essentially you're asking if the US is a legitimate government. However I think the problem here is that we are throwing in categories that the Bible never distinguishes or recognizes (to my knowledge). When Jesus, Peter, and Paul speak about submission to the governing authorities I do not see any caveat regarding the "legitimacy" of said authorities.
In fact I think you could argue that the Roman government they were under could be questioned on the same grounds, since the empire was established essentially by rebellion against the preceding Roman Republic (depending on what event you use to determine the end of the republic).
So I don't think "legitimacy" is really a question that scripture worries about, instead we are to submit to the authorities in power.
Let me ask you something. If self-governance is a moral entitlement that all people have, then were the apostles and the early church morally wrong to not seek to change the Roman government?
ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
The Founding Fathers, Wrong?
But what if the non-submission were committed by a group of believers, Christians, say the Founding Fathers and their allies? Were not the colonials of the early 18th century composed of a "majority" of Christian believers, who experienced the First Great Awakening during the time of Jonathan Edwards? Are you saying that it was morally wrong for the early Americans to fight for their inalienable God-given rights, and rebel against the British? Are you saying that it was morally wrong for the early Christians to found the United States of America? :smilewinkgrin:
But what if the non-submission were committed by a group of believers, Christians, say the Founding Fathers and their allies? Were not the colonials of the early 18th century composed of a "majority" of Christian believers, who experienced the First Great Awakening during the time of Jonathan Edwards? Are you saying that it was morally wrong for the early Americans to fight for their inalienable God-given rights, and rebel against the British? Are you saying that it was morally wrong for the early Christians to found the United States of America? :smilewinkgrin:
:BangHead:
Obviously you aren't seriously interested in discussion.
But I do want to say that the bolded above is hilariously bad history. :laugh:
gigabyte71
Member
Christians didn't found the United States of America. Before the ratification of the Constitution, some of the States had State religions. There was never a time in the history of this country that it was a Christian nation.
:thumbs::thumbs:
ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
What is bad history is saying that citizens during the time of the Founding Fathers were not products of the First Great Awakening. :smilewinkgrin:
gigabyte71
Member
Your problem is your wording. There is tons of evidence that the Founders weren't Christians. This doesn't mean that believers didn't fight in the 1st war for Independence.
BTW: I am very pro-2nd. Though Lincoln destroyed the Republic and the Constitution is ignored in about 90% of the laws of the United States, the 2nd still affords us a semblance of freedom.
ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
Never? First Great Awakening (1731-1755), Second Great Awakening (1790-1840), Third Great Awakening (1850-1900).
Oh yeah? “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." "In God we Trust..."
You one of those who believe that the Holocaust never happened? :smilewinkgrin:
P.S. (Now, no longer a Christian nation.)
It's not a matter for the church, but for citizens.
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