Should God have compassion?

[TomMann]

In Calvinism - that text should not exist.

Why would you assume that we would take any offense with that text.... God has compassion on whom He wants, when He wants, for whatever reason He wants.....

In Calvinism God SHOULD say "I am God, I am sovereign I can do what I want and don't actually need a reason.

God does state that very thing over and over in scripture....... with the exception, at least I cannot recall, God saying He does not need a reason. His reasons are sufficient. He does not have to reveal His reasons to us.

In fact I deny you (Jonah) the right to challenge me".

Who has a right to challange God? Who has God authorized to challange Him?

That would be "calvinism".

If you are saying that.......

(1) God having the right to do as He will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of earth.

(2) And that our having no right to challange what He has proclaimed or ordained.

(3) And that His reason for doing whatever it is He decides to do is His own and sufficient....

.........would be Calvinism.

Then I would say you are beginning to have a grasp of some of the things we draw from scripture to proclaim....

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by TomMann:
God plainly states the reason he had compassion on Nineveh.....

Indeed he does -- righ there IN Jonah 4 the words that HE SAYS following HIS statement
"Should I NOT have COMPASSION on Nineveh?"

Hmmm now lets see what WERE those WORDS that HE chose to bring to focus AS HE directs our attention on the matter of whether God SHOULD have mercy on Nineveh?? I know it is in the text somewhere just as you say. Lets READ Jonah 4 and SEE.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jonah 4

9Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.

11"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

Did you see "THE BOLD TYPE" yet?

It is BIG AND BOLD so I am sure the Arminans are gettin' it.

</font>[/QUOTE]When God LISTS the REASONS why HE SHOULD have mercy - IN THE TEXT -- we see HIM give the following list.

#1. The number of people
#2. The ignorance of the people
#3. The fact of many animals in the city.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God said

11"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

yes that would be the LIST given in VS 11. Now notice how a Calvinist will take that SAME list AS GIVEN in Vs 11 and say "NOT" before each item IN the list!!

Tom said --
God did not spare Nineveh because of the number of people, nor for the fact they were ignorant. Not even for the fact there were much animals

The SAME list God gives in vs 11 - in the SAME order with "NOT" inserted before each one!!

An "exact negation" of the text!


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
In Calvinism - Jonah 4:11 should not exist.

As has been shown above - in great detail.

Tom said
Why would you assume that we would take any offense with that text.... God has compassion on whom He wants, when He wants, for whatever reason He wants.....

Err umm because IN JONAH 4:11 the ACTUAL WORDS do NOT include the EXPECTED CAlvinist response "God has compassion on whom He wants, when He wants, for whatever reason He wants.." (you know ... the one you just SAW yourself give above).

Obviously.

Instead of that EXPECTED Calvinist response we READ in the text the very UNNEXPECTED response that includes the NUMBER of people, their level of ignorance and the numbers of annimals in the city.

That is truly and "in-your-face-calvinism" scenario!

Your own response above SHOWS it.

Bob CONTINUES to emphasize the OBVIOUS --
In Calvinism God SHOULD say "I am God, I am sovereign I can do what I want and don't actually need a reason.

Indeed - were Calvinists allowed to IGNORE the TEXT of Jonah 4 they could certainly find OTHER texts more easily worked into their views.

but alas! the topic here IS Jonah 4.

Tom
God does state that very thing over and over in scripture....... with the exception, at least I cannot recall, God saying He does not need a reason. His reasons are sufficient. He does not have to reveal His reasons to us.

If only THOSE WORDS appeared IN THE TEXT of Jonah 4:11 where God HIMSELF focuses the reader on this VERY topic in the case of Nineveh!!

God provides a case for Mercy in Jonah 4:11 that Calvinism has no place for... Calvinism ONLY Allows the kind of thing YOU INSERT above!

But NOT what we actually SEE IN the text of Jonah 4:11.

Obviously.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said Calvinism would PREDICT a Jonah 4:11 text that says something like
In fact I deny you (Jonah) the right to challenge me".

Tom agrees
Who has a right to challange God? Who has God authorized to challange Him?

It is always good to see a Calvinist tricked into admitting to Calvinism even when it is inconvenient to do so in light of the text at hand - in this case Jonah 4:11.

Bob said
That would be "calvinism".

Tom
If you are saying that.......

(1) God having the right to do as He will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of earth.

(2) And that our having no right to challange what He has proclaimed or ordained.

(3) And that His reason for doing whatever it is He decides to do is His own and sufficient....

.........would be Calvinism.

Then I would say you are beginning to have a grasp of some of the things we draw from scripture

Indeed - that answer IS calvinism and IS what Calvinism EXPECTS to find when the question is brought up "SHOULD God have compassion in this case or not".

Calvinism says that the answer SHOULD be "HE may certainly do that IF HE HAPPENS TO WANT TO -- but for no other reason CERTAINLY NOT for any reason related to the NUMBER of People, or the IGNORANCE of the wicked OR the NUMBER of ANIMALS".

Back to my initial obvious point, if Calvinism were actually true - then Jonah 4:11 would not exist!

(Just stating the obvious)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is interesting the many ways that Calvinists on this thread have been begging for this point about Jonah 4:11 to be repeatedly offerred up.

Truly that is the Sovereignty of God -- that they do this even though it does not serve Calvinism!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

It was interesting the many ways the Arminian on this thread misunderstood and misrepresented Jonah 4:11, but it has really become rather boring.

What is interesting (and regretful) is that apparently the charge is now being leveled that the Sovereign God is the Author of this misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

 

[TomMann]

Still that doesn't seem to be in agreement with: Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. KJV

But nonetheless lets assume that God had compassion on Nineveh because there were 120,000 people, who didn't know there right from their left, and much animals. And we will just leave that other verse out of the equation. I did ask you to cut to the chase.... and to make your point... and for some reason you seem to think that this will disprove calvinism... I think ya lost me there.......

Still, how bout we compromise. I'll give that God had compassion on Nineveh and warned her because there were 120,000 people, who didn't know their right from left, and much animals. Would you care to consider that He actually spared her because they repented.

 

[BobRyan]

I have already stated that Arminians would PREFER the Jonah 3:10 text as "the answer" as to WHY God should respond in Mercy!

My point is that EVEN the ARMINIANs are awed by the response of God in Jonah 4 WHERE HE points to things like THE NUMBER of people, the IGNORANCE of the People and the NUMBER OF ANIMALS as factors/reasons/basics in WHY HE SHOULD have mercy!

By including THESE facts HE shows why He has mercy EVEN on nations that are NOT repenting!

And obviously He DOES do that very thing.

In 2Peter 3 we see the SAME POINT "God is not willing for ANY to perish" -- and this is SEEN in His argument FOR Nineveh appealing to such basic facts when speaking TO Jonah in the context of Jonah's OPPOSITION to God Having Mercy!

Now the interesting thing is that God implies that this list SHOULD have been cause for Jonah HIMSELF to desire MERCY and to agree with God!

A point going FARRRRR beyond debunking Calvinism!!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TomMann]

Bob, I hope you don't try to enter that horse in a race...... cause he don't run.

 

[BobRyan]

The complete failure of Calvinists to deal WITH the LIST in Jonah 4 (IN THEIR EVERY POST) is nothing less than a continual confession that they have not been able to extract Calvinism from this devastating example that so debunks the errors of Calvinism.

AS pointed out - you NEEDED either Jonah 3 or Romans 9 to be REPRINTED in Jonah 4 INSTEAD of What God actually PLACED there!

Hint - see you CONTINUE to avoid the text? Yet?

I guess I should POST the text AGAIN that you are so focused on IGNORING.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by TomMann:
God plainly states the reason he had compassion on Nineveh.....

Indeed he does -- righ there IN Jonah 4 the words that HE SAYS following HIS statement
"Should I NOT have COMPASSION on Nineveh?"

Hmmm now lets see what WERE those WORDS that HE chose to bring to focus AS HE directs our attention on the matter of whether God SHOULD have mercy on Nineveh?? I know it is in the text somewhere just as you say. Lets READ Jonah 4 and SEE.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jonah 4

9Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.

11"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

Did you see "THE BOLD TYPE" yet?

It is BIG AND BOLD so I am sure the Arminans are gettin' it.

</font>[/QUOTE]When God LISTS the REASONS why HE SHOULD have mercy - IN THE TEXT -- we see HIM give the following list.

#1. The number of people
#2. The ignorance of the people
#3. The fact of many animals in the city.

[/QUOTE]

Facts IMPOSSIBLE to refute as ALL can read the text of Jonah 4 ABOVE.

Facts that totally debunk what Calvinism "would have preferred" as confessed in EVERY Calvinist post on this thread!!

How much more obvious do you need it to be???

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TomMann]

Now that you have beat the horse to death he sure won't run.....

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. KJV

You are so into the fact that this should have been repeated in his conversation with Jonah to be true....... that you deny its truth.

So lets change this to the King Bob version...

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and was really quite unimpressed... But then it dawned on him that there were 120000 of them, and that they did not know their right from their left, and they had much animals, and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. KBV

Okay Bob.... now I got it..... Sorry I was using the wrong version of the Bible.......... how could I have been so stupid....

 

[BobRyan]

Back to Jonah 3 "again"?

With each reference to Jonah 4 and the claim that you are so fearful of it - that you will not quote it and SHOW it to be in your favor - you "PROVE" the accusation by simply running to Jonah 3 "instead" of dealing with Jonah 4.

Are we "not supposed to notice"??

I claim you need to run from Jonah 4 and with every post you offer to "prove it".

then you claim that my point is not as obvious as it is.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TomMann]

I didn't run from Jonah 4, Bob.... I have admitted that those are valid reasons for God to have compassion on Nineveh by warning them. I happen to believe that the actual reason He spared them was because they repented.... Again, why did He not spare Sodom, they had lots of people, who appear to be quiet ignorant, and much animals....

 

[BobRyan]

Speaking of the LIST God gives in Jonah 4 you say "I have admitted that those are valid reasons for God to have compassion on Nineveh "

This is a big step forward.

How in the world does Calvinism "predict" that God will make THAT argument to a doubting disbelieving objecting servant OF God?

(or is the Calvinist argument that God is so arbitrary and fickle that ALL outcomes are "expected"?)

Back to the point WHAT principle of CAlvinism AGREES that BECAUSE of the NUMBER of wicked, the IGNORANCE of the wicked AND the NUMBER of Animals -- God SHOULD have mercy?

If the answer is "nothing in Calvinism suggest that this is the case AT ALL" -- then is Calvinism reading Jonah 4 and saying "as much as that makes no sense at all - it is God saying so it is true just not reliable!"?

Reliable as in PREDICTABLY true for future events. OBJECTIVELY true such that THE LIST ALONE is THE argument Jonah should be considering?!!

It is a list that stresses Arminianism -- BUT BLOWS CALVINISM out of the water!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TomMann]

Interesting that you left off the end of my quote......

"I have admitted that those are valid reasons for God to have compassion on Nineveh "

Wasn't word Niveveh was followed with "by warning them"???????

Didn't serve your purpose to include the whole quote, did it?

 

[BobRyan]

I prefer to focus on GOD's WORD that LIST HIS OWN reasons for having compassion on Nineveh.

God did not say in Jonah 4 "SHOULD I not have WARNED NINEVEH" rather Jonah 4 is AFTER the warning and AFTER the point in time where God was to have judged Nineveh. This is seen by the fact that Jonah is convinced in Chapter 4 that God has determined NOT to destroy the city.

It is the decision NOT to DESTROY the city that is in discussion in that fearful chapter 4 that Calvinists need to "flee".

My point here is to hold your feet to the "fire" so to speak - in NOT letting you derail the focus away from Jonah 4.

That is why I don't take your bait on "just think of this as WARNING Nineveh and IGNORE the context of Jonah 4 pointing to God's decision NOT TO DESTROY the city".

See?

It is pretty obvious when you let yourself relax a bit and just see the discussion going along.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

My thoughts on a Bible Chapter that Calvinist supposed would never be written!

Jonah 4 (NASB)
Jonah's Displeasure Rebuked

Jonah 4
1But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry.
2He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.
3"Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."

In this case the “it” that displeased Jonah in chapter 4 is the fact that God is NOT going to destroy the city. Jonah does not express his full displeasure with the decision of God until he sees that God has decided NOT to destroy the city.

Notice the ending of Jonah 3 as the wicked king of Nineveh seeks mercy where no mercy was announced?

The destruction was predicted to occur “in 40 days”. Notice that in chapter 3 the end result is “God did not do it”.

Jonah 3
9"Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."
10When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

[/quote]

Jonah’s message to the city was not “REPENT and believe or else you will be destroyed”. His message was only “40 days and YOU WILL be destroyed”. Jonah was working for a specific “end” in mind.

Jonah 3
4Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's walk; and he cried out and said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."

But as chapter 3 points out “God did not do it”

So now – there is the confrontation in chapter 4 between God AND HIS prophet! A confrontation where the REASONS for God “not doing it” are the focus of the chapter (As much as Calvinists can not allow themselves to admit this obvious fact).

Jonah 4
4The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"
5Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.
6So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.
7But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered.
8When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "Death is better to me than life."

Jonah is clearly displeased and angry. God’s challenge has been “do you have good reason to be angry” and this will extend to “the reasons” God has for showing mercy in the next phase of their discussion.

Jonah 4

9Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.

11"Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

 

[TomMann]

Focus by yourself... I already know the truth!!!!