Should People Ask Jesus Christ Into Their Lives???

[Silverhair]

God elects men. Trust ALL believe that.

God elects means. Since we do not know WHO God is regenerating (like knowing the wind), we proclaim repentance and faith to all. God commands it. Trust you can understand doing something because God told us to do it!

Why did Jesus die on the cross? I am saddened that anyone on BB claiming Christ as Savior would flippantly ask such an inane question. That is disappointing. You may not like the Calvinist emphasis on God regenerating man thru His holy Spirt, but that is uncalled for. You cannot be that ignorant.

Quite frankly if you do not see the context of that question then I have to question much about what you say. Did you stop reading before you got to the part that said "calvinism makes those things moot." It is the calvinist theology that renders the cross and preaching redundant. Your comment just points out how narrow your view is. You make unfounded accusations and then compound it by saying that I am ignorant. Sad to see a minister stoop so low.

Your calvinism wants man to be saved before they believe, that is just flying in the face of scripture which you seem content to ignore.
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,....

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The fact that God saves/regenerates someone leads us to the question of why does He do so? Calvinism says it is so that they can be given faith to believe but the bible says you have to have faith before you are saved. So at this point should I say to you what you said to me? "You cannot be that ignorant." No I would not say that but what I would say is that I think you do not understand scripture if you miss the clear message of scripture but instead you hold to your calvinist theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Actually Calvinism emphasizes it if anything.

Not if you hold to calvinism you do not. You have men saved before they believe.

 

[Reformed1689]

Quite frankly if you do not see the context of that question then I have to question much about what you say. Did you stop reading before you got to the part that said "calvinism makes those things moot." It is the calvinist theology that renders the cross and preaching redundant. Your comment just points out how narrow your view is. You make unfounded accusations and then compound it by saying that I am ignorant. Sad to see a minister stoop so low.

Your calvinism wants man to be saved before they believe, that is just flying in the face of scripture which you seem content to ignore.
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,....

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The fact that God saves/regenerates someone leads us to the question of why does He do so? Calvinism says it is so that they can be given faith to believe but the bible says you have to have faith before you are saved. So at this point should I say to you what you said to me? "You cannot be that ignorant." No I would not say that but what I would say is that I think you do not understand scripture if you miss the clear message of scripture but instead you hold to your calvinist theology.

Here is the problem I have with you. Your rejection of Calvinism is not a rejection of Calvinism, rather, it is a rejection of your caricature false representations of Calvinism.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Your calvinism wants man to be saved before they believe.

Understand basic biblical terms. We throw around the word "SAVED" as a term for the "whole package" of our redemption. "SAVED" in involves sin, redemption, atonement, regeneration, reconciliation, adoption, sanctification, conversion, conviction, born again, ransomed, faith, repentance, et al. These are not synonyms; they are all individual integral parts of the whole package of what we call "saved".

In this thread we are talking about just a PART of the "whole package" of salvation; the REGENERATION (regening the sin nature into a new/righteous nature) the sin nature of a person worked invisibly by the holy Spirit of God into a new, holy nature. THAT is one of the FIRST parts in "order of salvation" since unless the nature that HATES God, that is an ENEMY of God, that is incapable of doing ONE GOOD THING, that can never under any circumstances even SEEK God, is spiritually changed, man cannot "do" anything. Unless a man is born again by the Spirit - changed internally - the other parts of salvation never occur.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 330 am EDT / 1230 am PDT

 

[Silverhair]

Here is the problem I have with you. Your rejection of Calvinism is not a rejection of Calvinism, rather, it is a rejection of your caricature false representations of Calvinism.

Tell me what I got wrong. I just use the WCF/LBCF and TULIP and what you calvinists say on these boards.

 

[Reformed1689]

Tell me what I got wrong. I just use the WCF/LBCF and TULIP and what you calvinists say on these boards.

For example, you say saved before saved. I don't believe that. I don't see that in the LBCF either.

 

[Silverhair]

Understand basic biblical terms. We throw around the word "SAVED" as a term for the "whole package" of our redemption. "SAVED" in involves sin, redemption, atonement, regeneration, reconciliation, adoption, sanctification, conversion, conviction, born again, ransomed, faith, repentance, et al. These are not synonyms; they are all individual integral parts of the whole package of what we call "saved".

In this thread we are talking about just a PART of the "whole package" of salvation; the REGENERATION (regening the sin nature into a new/righteous nature) the sin nature of a person worked invisibly by the holy Spirit of God into a new, holy nature. THAT is one of the FIRST parts in "order of salvation" since unless the nature that HATES God, that is an ENEMY of God, that is incapable of doing ONE GOOD THING, that can never under any circumstances even SEEK God, is spiritually changed, man cannot "do" anything. Unless a man is born again by the Spirit - changed internally - the other parts of salvation never occur.

Well that sounds really good if you follow that calvinist theology but if you follow the bible then not so much. Your own theology and what calvinists put forward regarding salvation is not biblical. Your own teaching even as you state it has man regenerated before they believe. You can correct me if I am wrong. You seem to pass over the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts, even us non-calvinists believe He does that. What calvinists conveniently forget is the ULI of your TULIP.

I am amazed that as an intelligent man you can not see the glaring contradictions in your theology. You are telling me that a man has to be regenerated before he can seek God. But when we check the definition of regeneration in Webster we get "In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued" Note the first part "new birth" or born again/saved. So you are putting forward that man has to be saved before they even believe or seek or for that matter do anything as far as knowing God.

But, and this is something I have pointed out to calvinist many times, the bible disagrees with you.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Does God give us the grace so that we can seek Him, YES. But we are not reborn, as calvinists would have it, so that God can give us the gift of faith.

 

[atpollard]

Not if you hold to calvinism you do not. You have men saved before they believe.

For example, you say saved before saved. I don't believe that. I don't see that in the LBCF either.

Here is “saved before saved” …

[Acts 2:37-38 NASB95]

37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

[Act 16:14 NASB95]

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.​

Who made the first move, God or the listener?
(God acted on the heart BEFORE “repent and be baptized”).

Here again is the criteria for “saved”:
[Romans 10:9-10 CSB]

9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
​

So God makes the first move … that is all Calvinists are saying (and we are only saying it because that is what Scripture reveals).

 

[Silverhair]

For example, you say saved before saved. I don't believe that. I don't see that in the LBCF either.

Want to try that again, saved before saved, where did you get that? Did you mean to write "You have men saved before they believe."

So your telling me that God saves people that do not even believe in Him? Don't you know that the bible disagrees with you.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

I'm sure you have seen those verses before, are you just not understanding them?

 

[Silverhair]

Here is “saved before saved” …

[Acts 2:37-38 NASB95]

37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​

[Act 16:14 NASB95]

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.​

Who made the first move, God or the listener?
(God acted on the heart BEFORE “repent and be baptized”).

Here again is the criteria for “saved”:
[Romans 10:9-10 CSB]

9 If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
​

So God makes the first move … that is all Calvinists are saying (and we are only saying it because that is what Scripture reveals).

Acts 2:37-38 when they heard what? The gospel message. The message pierced them, they believed the message. They repented, why because the believed.
Act 16:14 Lydia,... a worshiper of God,heard the gospel message and was convicted by it.

God is gracious and has allowed man to make real choices, but that is not what the calvinist sees. The calvinist wants to limit those that God is gracious to but that is not in the bible.

Romans 10:9-10 after hearing the gospel message the person has to make a choice don't they?

So God makes the first move … that is all Calvinists are saying. Non-calvinists do see the Grace of God working via the Holy Spirit convicting people. Where I see the problem with calvinism is that they want to restrict those that can be convicted to a preselected group. God has always made the first move. He has reached out to all mankind and shown that He is the creator and now through the gospel message He continues to reach out and convicts. The calvinist see that conviction as absolute whereas the majority of Christianity sees it as conditional.

If you take the calvinist view to it's logical conclusion then you would have untold millions condemned because God did not give them the necessary absolute conviction for them to believe.

Be honest with yourself and look at the ULI of the calvinist TULIP.

 

[Reformed1689]

If you take the calvinist view to it's logical conclusion then you would have untold millions condemned because God did not give them the necessary absolute conviction for them to believe.

Ever read Romans 9?

 

[Silverhair]

Ever read Romans 9?

Yep many times. So what is the point you are trying to make? You read it through your calvinist glasses, I do not.

 

[Jerome]

Thomas Manton
"receive Christ into your heart, and he will receive you into heaven....The primary office of faith is to close with Christ. There the foundation is laid rightly to receive Christ; and when the union is begun there is a pledge of glory: Col. i. 27, 'Christ in you the hope of glory'."

William Gurnall
"Your embracing Christ preached to you in the gospel, will be as welcome news to Heaven, I can tell you, as the tidings of Christ and salvation through Him can be to you. There is joy in Heaven at the conversion of a sinner. Those angels that sang Christ into the world, will not lack a song when He is received into your heart, for He came into the world for this end."

 

[atpollard]

Thomas Manton
"receive Christ into your heart, and he will receive you into heaven....The primary office of faith is to close with Christ. There the foundation is laid rightly to receive Christ; and when the union is begun there is a pledge of glory: Col. i. 27, 'Christ in you the hope of glory'."

William Gurnall
"Your embracing Christ preached to you in the gospel, will be as welcome news to Heaven, I can tell you, as the tidings of Christ and salvation through Him can be to you. There is joy in Heaven at the conversion of a sinner. Those angels that sang Christ into the world, will not lack a song when He is received into your heart, for He came into the world for this end."

[John 3:20 NASB20]

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.​

If only fallen man were willing to run to God, rather than follow the example of our father:

[Genesis 3:8 NASB20]

8 Now they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.​

 

[atpollard]

Acts 2:37-38 when they heard what? The gospel message.

• proving that God uses MEANS (which no Particular Baptist denies).

The message pierced them, they believed the message.

• a monergistic work of God ... the EXACT SAME message was heard by others who were not pierced. In the case of Lydia, scripture EXPLICITLY stated that GOD OPENED HER HEART to receive the word. It could not be worded any clearer than it is.

They repented, why because the believed.

• You are omitting the "first cause" of their belief ... God DREW ... God OPENED THEIR HEART.
• John 3:3 ... without God's "first cause" men remain blind ... they cannot "see" the gospel to believe. [2 Corinthians 4:3-4]

 

[Reformed1689]

Yep many times. So what is the point you are trying to make? You read it through your calvinist glasses, I do not.

LOL the only way to read Romans 9 any other way is with some MAJOR gymnastics in the exegetical area resulting in false and wrong interpretation. I wasn't not always a Calvinist sir.

 

[AustinC]

LOL the only way to read Romans 9 any other way is with some MAJOR gymnastics in the exegetical area resulting in false and wrong interpretation. I wasn't not always a Calvinist sir.

Wasn't not always??? So...you were always a Calvinist???

 

[Reformed1689]

Wasn't not always??? So...you were always a Calvinist???

lol little typo there

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon, 1891
"Admit the Lord into your heart, and the limping of your unbelief will be exchanged for the reapings of faith. Then shall you see those things to which your heart has long been blind. Let him in! Let him in! Believe on him, and trust him, and so let him into your heart, and you shall find him the physician of your soul."

Thomas Killcop, 1660
"Obj: There is a passive receiving of Christ without a hand, when God forceth open mans spirit, and powreth in his Son in despite of the receiver.
Answ. This contradicts Christ, who saith, Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will open to me, I will come into him and sup with him, and he with me, Rev. 3.20."