Should we partner with unbeleivers in Ministry Work??!

[webdog]

Wow, that is an interesting church. "Beatings and imprisonments" eh?

Funny... I thought God dwelled in US, not in buildings.. (v.16).

If you don't even know the purpose for Paul's two letters to that church, there is nothing more to discuss. I don't recall either me nor Paul saying anything about buildings. Non sequitur much?

Sure I would admit it. I have no problem admitting I am wrong. I have been married too long for that...

If you believe that a person working next to a person on a regular basis, doing "good" with that person, doesn't get influenced BY that person, you are insane.

Ha! :laugh: If you are telling me that YOU are influenced spiritually by being around unbelievers, you better go back to your old profession. I'm strong in my faith. Has nothing to do with sanity.

Interesting that you leave out the preceding sentence in the ESV study Bible. It says, "It is thus an image for being alliedwith. . .unbelievers."

Is it raining in here, or is that stuff seeping up from the ground? :tonofbricks:

I left nothing out on purpose, and its disingenuous of you to imply I did. It matters not to the context of the study notes. I didn't feel like typing the entire thing out.

 

[JonC]

It just shows that God can bring glory to Himself in spite of our disobedience.

In making dsicples we are to teach them to obey all that He has commanded . Matthew 28:20


Is the church not equipped to do both? That's just not something that you would need to partner with unbelievers to do. It is indeed easier than getting Christians to desire to do it. But we are not to operate in that manner.

Not really. The church does meet the needs of others through its own efforts. But additionally it does not shun the opportunity to witness by participating in the efforts of others. We go to Walmart on “black Friday” and provide coffee and witness to those in line. Walmart invites us because is an opportunity for their own “community involvement” but our purpose is witnessing. As I stated, our goal is not the same – but we are to be witnesses and not seek self-glorification by being so removed from the people around us. I would interpret this church’s action as being obedient in making disciples. It is the church “doing both.”


There are Christians who oppose such activities – and that’s fine, they shouldn’t involve themselves in such activities. They also should not involve themselves in “partnering” with online media, internet providers, etc to spread the gospel. For their goal may be to witness, but it certainly is not the goal of those services they are utilizing. For example, I have seen many provide podcasts on iTunes (they partner with them via their “store” – which is also a secular and often pagan marketing source.



But the difference is that the church is not partnered with these non-Christian organizations for a truly "common" goal.

 

[Zaac]

Not really. The church does meet the needs of others through its own efforts.

Are you saying there is no one available within the Church, the Body of Christ, who can provide the same services that the nonBelievers are providing?

But additionally it does not shun the opportunity to witness by participating in the efforts of others. We go to Walmart on “black Friday” and provide coffee and witness to those in line. Walmart invites us because is an opportunity for their own “community involvement” but our purpose is witnessing.

But that's not partnering with WalMart in ministry. WalMart is letting you help the folks who spend money there. If they were partnered with you, they too would be witnessing to those in line.

As I stated, our goal is not the same – but we are to be witnesses and not seek self-glorification by being so removed from the people around us. I would interpret this church’s action as being obedient in making disciples. It is the church “doing both

.”

As long as the church isn't partnering with that which is against God, more power to it.

There are Christians who oppose such activities – and that’s fine, they shouldn’t involve themselves in such activities. They also should not involve themselves in “partnering” with online media, internet providers, etc to spread the gospel.

I think you're missing the BIBLICAL context of yoking or partnering. The only way to partner with online media etc to spread the Gospel is if the online media is literally spreading the Gospel with you.

If they are against God, you don't want people to be confused that they can do the same thing that you do. They cannot.

For their goal may be to witness, but it certainly is not the goal of those services they are utilizing. For example, I have seen many provide podcasts on iTunes (they partner with them via their “store” – which is also a secular and often pagan marketing source.

You just showed the difference. Partnering and utilizing services aren't the same. The sound system in our church is run off electricity from a predominantly secular company. That doesn't mean we're partnered with them.

But the difference is that the church is not partnered with these non-Christian organizations for a truly "common" goal.

If you're partnered, you should be doing the same thing.

 

[Havensdad]

If you don't even know the purpose for Paul's two letters to that church, there is nothing more to discuss. I don't recall either me nor Paul saying anything about buildings. Non sequitur much?

I do know the purpose....apparently you do not.

I'm strong in my faith.

Oh, the danger inherent in that statement.


Thanks, but I will be assured of my ABSOLUTE weakness, and rely on Christ and His word for how to live my life, instead of relying on my "strong faith" to get me through situations that Christ commands us to avoid.

He told me not to do it...He probably knows more than me.

I left nothing out on purpose, and its disingenuous of you to imply I did. It matters not to the context of the study notes. I didn't feel like typing the entire thing out.

Really? Because it says EXACTLY what I am saying...that we should not be allied with unbelievers.

 

[Havensdad]

Are you saying there is no one available within the Church, the Body of Christ, who can provide the same services that the nonBelievers are providing?




But that's not partnering with WalMart in ministry. WalMart is letting you help the folks who spend money there. If they were partnered with you, they too would be witnessing to those in line.

.”

As long as the church isn't partnering with that which is against God, more power to it.




I think you're missing the BIBLICAL context of yoking or partnering. The only way to partner with online media etc to spread the Gospel is if the online media is literally spreading the Gospel with you.

If they are against God, you don't want people to be confused that they can do the same thing that you do. They cannot.



You just showed the difference. Partnering and utilizing services aren't the same. The sound system in our church is run off electricity from a predominantly secular company. That doesn't mean we're partnered with them.




If you're partnered, you should be doing the same thing.

Thank you sir, for presenting your case so well. You explained this much better than I could.

 

[JonC]

No, I’m saying that churches can spread the gospel by working with non-believers in addition to providing the same services as many of these organizations. I do agree that the Walmart example is not a partnership in the ministry – but by that standard neither is working with the organization that helps the abused. By that definition – you couldn’t “partner” with any secular group in the ministry because the goals are different (the church would be using opportunities, people may benefit – but the secular organization wouldn’t have the goal of spreading the gospel. If the gospel is not the goal then it is not a ministry).



I didn’t really miss the context of yoking or partnering – I don’t think that the examples I gave are partnering (I tried to remember to state it as “partnering”). The problem, IMHO, is when churches see their function as meeting physical needs above and beyond spiritual needs. They also need to be careful to avoid the appearance that a particular non-Christian organization has the endorsement of the church.

 

[Havensdad]

I do agree that the Walmart example is not a partnership in the ministry – but by that standard neither is working with the organization that helps the abused. By that definition – you couldn’t “partner” with any secular group in the ministry because the goals are different (the church would be using opportunities, people may benefit – but the secular organization wouldn’t have the goal of spreading the gospel. If the gospel is not the goal then it is not a ministry).

So, you see no problem partnering in an "abuse" ministry, with people who are (for an extreme example) Satanists? They are working AGAINST the gospel!!

The example with Wal-mart is completely different. Walmart is doing NOTHING. With the case of an abuse ministry, or abortion ministry, the people are counseling people. They are DIRECTLY involved with each other. The person comes in one day, talks to you...the next time, you took a sick day, so she sits down with the Satanist...hey, you are working together, right? You must have the same goals....

I just do not see how you can possibly reconcile that with scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

Um, "saved" Catholics?? No.

Since Catholics and Mormons deny the Biblical gospel, and reject the grace of Christ for a system of merits, I would say even on the off-chance that their were a few saved lay people in their ranks, that were ignorant enough of their cult's teachings to remain, they are nevertheless walking in disobedience and are "contrary to the truth" and thus, should be avoided as per 1 Corinthians 5.

However, I am doubtful of any "saved" individuals among the ranks of the Catholic church. Faith is based on knowledge, and a wrong knowledge= a non-saving faith.

We are to be seperate from dealing with and partnering up and being aligned with the RCC itself, as that Church denies real Christianity, and promotes false Gospel, but whre does the bible stae to not have fellowship with saved in that church? God grace reaches his chosen even in their church, right?

 

[JonC]

So, you see no problem partnering in an "abuse" ministry, with people who are (for an extreme example) Satanists? They are working AGAINST the gospel!!

The example with Wal-mart is completely different. Walmart is doing NOTHING. With the case of an abuse ministry, or abortion ministry, the people are counseling people. They are DIRECTLY involved with each other. The person comes in one day, talks to you...the next time, you took a sick day, so she sits down with the Satanist...hey, you are working together, right? You must have the same goals....

I just do not see how you can possibly reconcile that with scripture.

I would hope that any church would evaluate the situation before "jumping in". The difference is that I do not see a secular organization providing safe environments as as a ministry (where as you see it as an "abuse ministry").

Giving you the same respect - taking things to the extreme -perhaps you are right that we should leave those that the "Satanist" would reach alone - but I would think that these should also hear the gospel. Then again, if they want to hear the gospel, I'm sure they know where to find us.

 

[Havensdad]

We are to be seperate from dealing with and partnering up and being aligned with the RCC itself, as that Church denies real Christianity, and promotes false Gospel, but whre does the bible stae to not have fellowship with saved in that church? God grace reaches his chosen even in their church, right?

First, you are ASSUMING that their are people saved in that church. You don't actually know that.

The Bible does not say "Don't partner with bad churches" it says "Don't partner with unbelievers." How are we to tell an "unbeliever", so that we do not partner with them?

Paul gives us two ways...conduct, and confession. We know they are unbelievers (well, we are to assume they are any way), if they engage in continued, unrepentant sin. Paul says to treat them like an unbeliever. We also know they are unbelievers by their CONFESSION....what is it that they say they believe. If they say that Jesus is a sunflower, OR that we are saved from purgatory through the merits of the saints, they are unbelievers.

 

[Havensdad]

I would hope that any church would evaluate the situation before "jumping in". The difference is that I do not see a secular organization providing safe environments as as a ministry (where as you see it as an "abuse ministry").

Giving you the same respect - taking things to the extreme -perhaps you are right that we should leave those that the "Satanist" would reach alone - but I would think that these should also hear the gospel. Then again, if they want to hear the gospel, I'm sure they know where to find us.

Not at all. Stand on the street corner, and preach the Gospel. Go to them, and preach the Gospel. Start a church based abuse-ministry, that is specifically focused on the life changing power of the Gospel.

This is not an either/or situation. Why do you keep acting like not partnering w/unbelievers instantly means not ministering to them?

 

[JonC]

Instead of using your example I should have used the real one I began with. The group provides shelter. The pd makes rounds to make sure they are safe. Our church helps with clothes and food. Local pastors counsel these women. We also have a prison ministry which also works "officially" with the jail and a pastor who is "officially" the hs football Chaplin. Strange how these ungodly efforts have seen fruit.

 

[JonC]

This is not an either/or situation. Why do you keep acting like not partnering w/unbelievers instantly means not ministering to them?

It isn't either or - that IS my point.

 

[Yeshua1]

First, you are ASSUMING that their are people saved in that church. You don't actually know that.

The Bible does not say "Don't partner with bad churches" it says "Don't partner with unbelievers." How are we to tell an "unbeliever", so that we do not partner with them?

Paul gives us two ways...conduct, and confession. We know they are unbelievers (well, we are to assume they are any way), if they engage in continued, unrepentant sin. Paul says to treat them like an unbeliever. We also know they are unbelievers by their CONFESSION....what is it that they say they believe. If they say that Jesus is a sunflower, OR that we are saved from purgatory through the merits of the saints, they are unbelievers.

So in order for ANY catholic to be saved by God, MUST have all right theology, and there are NONE saved by him still in that church?

 

[Havensdad]

So in order for ANY catholic to be saved by God, MUST have all right theology, and there are NONE saved by him still in that church?

"All right theology"? No.

They have to have the GOSPEL right, though! And Catholics do not! You keep calling it a "church." Its not a church, anymore than the "Church of Scientology" is a church.

 

[Yeshua1]

"All right theology"? No.

They have to have the GOSPEL right, though! And Catholics do not! You keep calling it a "church." Its not a church, anymore than the "Church of Scientology" is a church.

You and I would agree that Rome is NOT a Chrsitian church, that it has a wrong and false Gospel, but are you stating none in there are saved?

 

[Havensdad]

You and I would agree that Rome is NOT a Chrsitian church, that it has a wrong and false Gospel, but are you stating none in there are saved?

Are Muslims saved?

 

[Zaac]

Instead of using your example I should have used the real one I began with. The group provides shelter. The pd makes rounds to make sure they are safe. Our church helps with clothes and food. Local pastors counsel these women. We also have a prison ministry which also works "officially" with the jail and a pastor who is "officially" the hs football Chaplin. Strange how these ungodly efforts have seen fruit.

Fruit is not the measure of right as God can use a donkey to get results.

The issue again is OBEDIENCE. God says do one thing. We want to do another because we see "fruit".

Obedience is better than our sacrificial disobedience that bears fruit.

Why can't your church independently provide clothes and foods? Are the Christians in your area incapable of providing shelter? Churches are empty for most of the week.

 

[JonC]

Fruit is not the measure of right as God can use a donkey to get results.

The issue again is OBEDIENCE. God says do one thing. We want to do another because we see "fruit".

Obedience is better than our sacrificial disobedience that bears fruit.

Why can't your church independently provide clothes and foods? Are the Christians in your area incapable of providing shelter? Churches are empty for most of the week.

I am assuming by your last comment that this is not a serious post, but I'll answer anyway.

The issue is obedience and those ministering in the jails, witnessing to the abused, witnessing to the students are being obedient to the gospel and command of Christ. What you mean is "obedience to what you want" not obedience to God. Again - it is the MINISTRY of the church - not the ministry of a secular organization.

I assume that the third point is a twist on 1 Samuel 15:22 (but not sure as you don't strike me as one to alter Scripture - either in word or intent). What you have failed to prove is that Christians cannot work with secular groups for a common secular purpose but a greater purpose of sharing the gospel.

The last paragraph is makes me believe it is not a serious reply. I have repeatedly said that the church also works independently. And yes, your local churches do not have the resources to duplicate resources that are already available and I would think it an arrogant sin and demonstration of poor stewardship to do so. It is not "either/or." So please, lets dispense with the silliness and dishonesty and just evaluate this example I provided. If you can do that, then at least we can determine where we disagree. It is not a false example:

Our local church provides clothing and food (also toys for children) to an organization for abused women. This organization provides a safe environment in the form of housing which is patrolled by the local police department. Local church pastors provide counseling to these women. Our outreach ministry (and the ministry of other local churches) reach out to minister and spread the gospel to these women while they are going through this situation. Please just deal with this example and show in Scripture where this is unbiblical.

 

[Yeshua1]

Are Muslims saved?

Yes, the ones that God chose to save , NOT based upon that theology/religion, but upon Him getting to them the message of Jesus, and bringing them to faith in him!

they would renounce and seperate from islam at that time!