Should we partner with unbeleivers in Ministry Work??!

[webdog]

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Working for an unbeliever is partnering with them on economics, not ministry. I don't see it as being unequally yoked per the context of righteousness vs. lawlessness or darkness vs. light.

Agreed, but the text in question does not make that distinction, besides, some are employed to minister.

 

[webdog]

If that's how you want to interpret it. I cannot prove a negative. You are more than welcome to give me an example of ministry work in the New Testament that is completely separate from the Gospel....

I won't hold my breath.

Arguments from silence are equally unproven.

 

[Havensdad]

Sure it is. The common goal is to make tue company profitable so in turn you reap the benefiys. ALL employment is a partnership! You have just reduced and defined the definition to your liking.

Not so. I have defined it according to the context of the text. Paul is speaking about partnering together in ministry.

2Co 6:3 We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry,
2Co 6:4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
2Co 6:5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger;
2Co 6:6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love;
2Co 6:7 by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left;
2Co 6:8 through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;


Paul is saying "Don't partner with unbelievers in ministry, cause you will destroy your ministry...thats why he goes on to say,

2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,


You do know what "separate" means, don't you?

 

[Havensdad]

Arguments from silence are equally unproven.

The Bible is my pattern for ministry, and should be everyone else's. If the Bible NEVER shows a particular pattern of ministry, it would be wise not to embrace it..

 

[InTheLight]

Agreed, but the text in question does not make that distinction, besides, some are employed to minister.

I see the text having to do with spiritual matters. Generally speaking, employment is not a spiritual endeavor. I don't think the text can be made only about ministry, it can be about marriage or any relationship that would involve spiritual things.

 

[webdog]

I see the text having to do with spiritual matters. Generally speaking, employment is not a spiritual endeavor. I don't think the text can be made only about ministry, it can be about marriage or any relationship that would involve spiritual things.

I agree again, which was the basis for my first reply on this thread. I'm employing the reasoning being given by HD.

 

[Zaac]

Absolutely. I believe you misunderstand me.

Consider for a moment a really good, God-fearing candidate comes up for election. You say, "Wow, that guy is GREAT! I am going to pass out some buttons, and encourage others to vote for him."

All well and good, except a lot of the OTHER people who are supporting him, and campaigning for him are not all of the same character. There are catholics, mormons, and atheists, who like the candidate for a variety of reasons... so in some sense you are "partnering" with them.

That's what I was referring to...I agree with your sentiment above.

Thanks for clarifying Havensdad. I see what you're saying now.:thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

Not so. I have defined it according to the context of the text. Paul is speaking about partnering together in ministry.

2Co 6:3 We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry,
2Co 6:4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
2Co 6:5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger;
2Co 6:6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love;
2Co 6:7 by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left;
2Co 6:8 through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;


Paul is saying "Don't partner with unbelievers in ministry, cause you will destroy your ministry...thats why he goes on to say,

2Co 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,


You do know what "separate" means, don't you?

I came home from work last night and read these chapters again. You cannot put verse 17 in context using the early part of the chapter as verse 14 begins a new thought and direction. My ESV study Bible describes the context as "it refers especially to those who are still rebelling against Paul within the church, whom Paul now shockingly labels unbelievers, but the principle has wider application to other situations where (as with animals yoked together) one persons conduct and direction of life strongly influenced or controls the others."

The ministry you tried using in your video in context is the same ministry of reconciliation Paul discusses just prior in chapter 5 starting at verse 11, which is different than how you are defining ministry.

 

[JonC]

churches can come together to take action against say abortion, or gay rights, such as between catholics and evangelical, but that would be social agenda issues both agree on, but NOT to have inter faith prayers and evangelism/missions, as that would imply all were having same Gospel and Christ!

What about events like “See you at the pole.” I know it is not “common prayer” but praying together, although the event is supported by Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What about events like “See you at the pole.” I know it is not “common prayer” but praying together, although the event is supported by Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.

Or 911 memorials or memorial day gatherings where we all pray. How about this, my town has a coupla of churches getting together for Thanksgiving to join in song & praise.

 

[webdog]

What about events like “See you at the pole.” I know it is not “common prayer” but praying together, although the event is supported by Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.

If they are influencing your faith, it is wrong, per the true understanding of what being unequally yoked entails.

 

[JonC]

If they are influencing your faith, it is wrong, per the true understanding of what being unequally yoked entails.

[FONT=&quot]I don't think that these faiths are influencing one another - although they are united on this issue towards a common goal.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Come to think of it, our church does support an organization that helps abused women. I don’t think that I’d call this wrong, and we do witness not only to the staff but also to these women. But it certainly is an example of society and the ministry working towards a common goal (insofar as helping those in need is a common goal). [/FONT]

 

[webdog]

[FONT=&quot]I don't think that these faiths are influencing one another - although they are united on this issue towards a common goal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Come to think of it, our church does support an organization that helps abused women. I don’t think that I’d call this wrong, and we do witness not only to the staff but also to these women. But it certainly is an example of society and the ministry working towards a common goal (insofar as helping those in need is a common goal). [/FONT]

I agree with you...Havensdad would not.

 

[Havensdad]

I agree with you...Havensdad would not.

Correct. There is no "common goal" there...I have no interest in spending my time and labors to stop victims from being abused, so that the pagan heretic next to me can abuse her MUCH WORSE, by helping to consign her to an eternity of punishment.

Its funny to me that people think that they "have" to partner with those who despise our Lord. Why can't you help abuse victims WITHOUT helping to damage them spiritually?

 

[Havensdad]

I came home from work last night and read these chapters again. You cannot put verse 17 in context using the early part of the chapter as verse 14 begins a new thought and direction. My ESV study Bible describes the context as "it refers especially to those who are still rebelling against Paul within the church, whom Paul now shockingly labels unbelievers, but the principle has wider application to other situations where (as with animals yoked together) one persons conduct and direction of life strongly influenced or controls the others."

The ministry you tried using in your video in context is the same ministry of reconciliation Paul discusses just prior in chapter 5 starting at verse 11, which is different than how you are defining ministry.

That is simply incorrect. Paul has spent the chapter making an argument, regarding how ministry should be conducted. He has laid out his own ministry, and encouraged the Corinthians in theirs...he has told them NOT to partner with unbelievers, and then he gives them reasons why they should not partner with unbelievers. Then he says, "THEREFORE" come out from their midst, and be separate from them..that word "therefore" (dio), does not connote a new thought. It connotes a CONCLUSION, or a logical argument brought from the information laid out in preceding verses. The "coming out from them" and remaining "separate" is based on the argument Paul just made, regarding not partnering with unbelievers...

This is VERY clear from the verse, and is not in any way contradicted by the note in the ESV study Bible.

 

[JonC]

Correct. There is no "common goal" there...I have no interest in spending my time and labors to stop victims from being abused, so that the pagan heretic next to me can abuse her MUCH WORSE, by helping to consign her to an eternity of punishment.

Its funny to me that people think that they "have" to partner with those who despise our Lord. Why can't you help abuse victims WITHOUT helping to damage them spiritually?

Interestingly enough, that has not proved to be the case in this example. While we “partner” with them (the people providing a safe living environment and career training) by helping to supply needs such as clothing, food, etc, it is also a means of reaching others for Christ. Many of these women and their children are now faithful members of our congregation. They heard the gospel through churches who minister to those within this secular outreach.


You see, the “organization” does not despise our Lord. It is made up of individual people – some are believers and some are not – who are employed there to assist the physical needs of others. Our church does not simply participate in this endeavor with the goal of providing food and clothes – instead it is to share the gospel (both in word and deed). So yes, we have different goals than the organization – they are only concerned about the immediate and physical needs of these women and their families where we are also concerned about sharing Christ.

 

[Zaac]

Correct. There is no "common goal" there...I have no interest in spending my time and labors to stop victims from being abused, so that the pagan heretic next to me can abuse her MUCH WORSE, by helping to consign her to an eternity of punishment.

Its funny to me that people think that they "have" to partner with those who despise our Lord. Why can't you help abuse victims WITHOUT helping to damage them spiritually?

Thank you JESUS!!! for calling this out!!!:applause:God desires our obedience over our "sacrificial" ecumenicalism for a cause.

For sure God has not partnered with that which is against Him so why on earth do we even entertain the thought?

 

[webdog]

That is simply incorrect. Paul has spent the chapter making an argument, regarding how ministry should be conducted. He has laid out his own ministry, and encouraged the Corinthians in theirs...he has told them NOT to partner with unbelievers, and then he gives them reasons why they should not partner with unbelievers. Then he says, "THEREFORE" come out from their midst, and be separate from them..that word "therefore" (dio), does not connote a new thought. It connotes a CONCLUSION, or a logical argument brought from the information laid out in preceding verses. The "coming out from them" and remaining "separate" is based on the argument Paul just made, regarding not partnering with unbelievers...

The context is the church Paul is addressing, the one with issues WITHIN, ...not the church's actions outside ministering to the needs of others. Part of being in the world and not of it.

This is VERY clear from the verse, and is not in any way contradicted by the note in the ESV study Bible.

Sure it does, but you would never admit it. No way you can tell me a believer working in a food line with an unbeliever is 'controlled and influenced' by him...what the ESV note plainly states.

 

[Zaac]

Interestingly enough, that has not proved to be the case in this example. While we “partner” with them (the people providing a safe living environment and career training) by helping to supply needs such as clothing, food, etc, it is also a means of reaching others for Christ. Many of these women and their children are now faithful members of our congregation. They heard the gospel through churches who minister to those within this secular outreach.

It just shows that God can bring glory to Himself in spite of our disobedience.

In making dsicples we are to teach them to obey all that He has commanded . Matthew 28:20

You see, the “organization” does not despise our Lord. It is made up of individual people – some are believers and some are not – who are employed there to assist the physical needs of others. Our church does not simply participate in this endeavor with the goal of providing food and clothes – instead it is to share the gospel (both in word and deed). So yes, we have different goals than the organization – they are only concerned about the immediate and physical needs of these women and their families where we are also concerned about sharing Christ.

Is the church not equipped to do both? That's just not something that you would need to partner with unbelievers to do. It is indeed easier than getting Christians to desire to do it. But we are not to operate in that manner.

 

[Havensdad]

The context is the church Paul is addressing, the one with issues WITHIN, ...not the church's actions outside ministering to the needs of others. Part of being in the world and not of it.

Wow, that is an interesting church. "Beatings and imprisonments" eh?

Funny... I thought God dwelled in US, not in buildings.. (v.16).

Sure it does, but you would never admit it. No way you can tell me a believer working in a food line with an unbeliever is 'controlled and influenced' by him...what the ESV note plainly states.

Sure I would admit it. I have no problem admitting I am wrong. I have been married too long for that...

If you believe that a person working next to a person on a regular basis, doing "good" with that person, doesn't get influenced BY that person, you are insane.


Interesting that you leave out the preceding sentence in the ESV study Bible. It says, "It is thus an image for being alliedwith. . .unbelievers."

Is it raining in here, or is that stuff seeping up from the ground? :tonofbricks: