Should we really pledge our allegiance...

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

 

[Don]

Interesting question. But what's the alternative?

 

[FR7 Baptist]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

Yes. No nation is perfect, even ours. However, the precepts on which this nation was founded are great and we should adhere to them.

In Florida, there is an oath at the bottom of the voter registration form where you sign which states:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Florida, that I am qualified to register as an elector under the Constitution and laws of the State of Florida, and that all information provided in this application is true."

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a voter sign that upon registration. I have much loyalty to the Constitutions of the United States and the State of Florida, and I will protect and defend them.

 

[NiteShift]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

Maybe you could consider giving allegiance to a country whose citizens have sent, and continue to send, millions of Bibles all around the world free of charge since at least 1816. The American Bible Society was originally established by such patriots as John Jay, DeWitt Clinton, James Fennimore Cooper, Rutherford B. Hayes, Benjamin Harrison, Francis Scott Key, John Quincy Adams, and Elias Boudinot, one of the first presidents of the Continental Congress.

Or possiby to a country which has sent Christian missionaries to every continent in the world. Or a country whose citizens annually contribute $95 billion in charity to foreign countries?

Yeah I can do that.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Maybe you could consider giving allegiance to a country whose citizens have sent, and continue to send, millions of Bibles all around the world free of charge since at least 1816. The American Bible Society was originally established by such patriots as John Jay, DeWitt Clinton, James Fennimore Cooper, Rutherford B. Hayes, Benjamin Harrison, Francis Scott Key, John Quincy Adams, and Elias Boudinot, one of the first presidents of the Continental Congress.

Or possiby to a country which has sent Christian missionaries to every continent in the world. Or a country whose citizens annually contribute $95 billion in charity to foreign countries?

Yeah I can do that.

So does the good outweigh the slaughter of 50 million innocent human beings?

50 million. That is almost 10 times the size of Hitler's holocaust.

 

[targus]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

It depends on the meaning of "allegiance".

If allegiance includes working to correct injustices within the nation - then yes.

Are you suggesting that unless a nation is perfect then a Christian should have no allegiance (or loyalty) to that nation?

BTW - not sure what you mean by devotion in this context.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It depends on the meaning of "allegiance".

If allegiance includes working to correct injustices within the nation - then yes.

Are you suggesting that unless a nation is perfect then a Christian should have no allegiance (or loyalty) to that nation?

BTW - not sure what you mean by devotion in this context.

There is big difference between slightly ipmperfect and 50 million dead babies.

Obviously the word 'devotion' is not meant in a religious context. I assumed that would be clear.

BTW, I just reread my OP. I am not suggesting anything. I am asking a question.

 

[David Lamb]

Maybe you could consider giving allegiance to a country whose citizens have sent, and continue to send, millions of Bibles all around the world free of charge since at least 1816. The American Bible Society was originally established by such patriots as John Jay, DeWitt Clinton, James Fennimore Cooper, Rutherford B. Hayes, Benjamin Harrison, Francis Scott Key, John Quincy Adams, and Elias Boudinot, one of the first presidents of the Continental Congress.

Or possiby to a country which has sent Christian missionaries to every continent in the world. Or a country whose citizens annually contribute $95 billion in charity to foreign countries?

Yeah I can do that.

But surely the USA as a nation has not and does not send millions of bibles around the world, or missionaries to every continent of the world. There are in America surely plenty of atheists, adherents of false religions and cults, and "nominal Christians", few of whom would have a desire to send missionaries or distribute God's Word. I don't live there, so I'm quite prepared for you to tell me I'm wrong on this.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

But surely the USA as a nation has not and does not send millions of bibles around the world, or missionaries to every continent of the world.

And yet, as a nation, it does sanction and pay for killing babies.

 

[targus]

There is big difference between slightly ipmperfect and 50 million dead babies.

Obviously the word 'devotion' is not meant in a religious context. I assumed that would be clear.

The courts were the ones that decided that abortion is legal - not the "nation".

Your sense of allegiance may not be the same as mine.

To me allegiance includes working to right injustice - the larger the injustice the greater the committment to right it.

When the courts make a bad decison or when Congress passes a bad law should the people turn their backs on the nation because they don't agree with it?

If that is the case then their was no allegiance to begin with.

Allegiance isn't "my country right or wrong".

Allegiance is "this is my country and I am going to work to make this nation the best that it can be".

 

[NiteShift]

But surely the USA as a nation has not and does not send millions of bibles around the world, or missionaries to every continent of the world. There are in America surely plenty of atheists, adherents of false religions and cults, and "nominal Christians", few of whom would have a desire to send missionaries or distribute God's Word. I don't live there, so I'm quite prepared for you to tell me I'm wrong on this.

We've got to take the good with the bad. "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."

People, probably you included, have no problem showing loyalty to their relations, their town, their state, knowing that there is both good & bad in all of them. It seems to be only when we reach the national level that critics see things totally different and warn against allegience.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

When the courts make a bad decison or when Congress passes a bad law should the people turn their backs on the nation because they don't agree with it?

.

Thanks for your comments. I understand your perspective. That is why I asked the question, to get different ideas and viewpoints.

On this question I contend there is a huge difference between a law I 'I don't agree with' like the Health Care bill and 40 years of infanticide.

A bill I don't like does not negate my allegiance.

The question here is should 40 years of baby killing affect my willingness to pledge allegiance?

 

[targus]

The question here is should 40 years of baby killing affect my willingness to pledge allegiance?

Again, it depends on what your definition of allegiance is.

What is allegiance to you?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

What is allegiance to you?

I know what allegiance means. Words have meanings. I can't decide for myself what a word means.

I have included a dictionary definition to clarify (from dictionary.com)

the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign.

The question I am asking myself is if I can swear loyalty to a nation that has committed one of the greatest mass murders of all time.

This is just a part of the greater picture of whether or not subjects of a heavenly King have any business pledging loyalty to a secular entity. It is one thing to be a law-abiding respectful citizen of a country, and quite another to swear loyalty to it. This issue is one that forces me to consider the entire concept.

 

[NiteShift]

The question I am asking myself is if I can swear loyalty to a nation that has committed one of the greatest mass murders of all time.

Of course it is individuals who have abortions, not countries.

This is just a part of the greater picture of whether or not subjects of a heavenly King have any business pledging loyalty to a secular entity. It is one thing to be a law-abiding respectful citizen of a country, and quite another to swear loyalty to it. This issue is one that forces me to consider the entire concept.

Meaning no disrespect, but for as long as I have been reading this board you seem to have taken a dim view of US nationalism. But then no one is forcing you to pledge allegience, that's the beauty of it. You don't have to :thumbsup:

 

[targus]

The question I am asking myself is if I can swear loyalty to a nation that has committed one of the greatest mass murders of all time.

This is just a part of the greater picture of whether or not subjects of a heavenly King have any business pledging loyalty to a secular entity. It is one thing to be a law-abiding respectful citizen of a country, and quite another to swear loyalty to it. This issue is one that forces me to consider the entire concept.

These seem like to different issues.

One is pledging loyalty to a nation that is guilty of allowing grave injustice.

The other is pledging loyalty to a nation at all.

It seems to me that you need to decide upon an answer to the latter before deciding upon the former.

 

[jaigner]

Rog does bring up a good point here.

My conviction all along is that it's not appropriate to pledge allegiance to an earthly Kingdom.

But bringing the actions of the country into the conversation makes it even more difficult. It doesn't stop with the abortion issue - this country has done a lot of crappy things. Manifest destiny? Slavery? The list goes on and on. For a nation that some claim is a Christian one, we haven't ever mirrored the Kingdom of Christ.

I enjoy living here, but if God called me somewhere else, that would be okay, too. There is nothing eternally special about the USA.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Of course it is individuals who have abortions, not countries.



Meaning no disrespect, but for as long as I have been reading this board you seem to have taken a dim view of US nationalism. But then no one is forcing you to pledge allegience, that's the beauty of it. You don't have to :thumbsup:

Good point, but the US government has sanctioned and paid for the murders.

You are correct in my view of secular nationalism, no matter what the country. I do not think extreme secular nationalism is compatible with Bible Christianity.

But this thread is not about me or secular nationalism in general.

Is it consistent for the children of God to swear loyalty to a nation which has legalised, sanctioned, and in many cases paid for the deaths of 50 million people?

That is the question under consideration.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

These seem like to different issues.

One is pledging loyalty to a nation that is guilty of allowing grave injustice.

The other is pledging loyalty to a nation at all.

It seems to me that you need to decide upon an answer to the latter before deciding upon the former.

Agreed. Both thoughts are under consideration here. I appreciate your input on how to apply allegiance. It has been helpful in the thought process.

 

[NiteShift]

But bringing the actions of the country into the conversation makes it even more difficult. It doesn't stop with the abortion issue - this country has done a lot of crappy things. Manifest destiny? Slavery? The list goes on and on. For a nation that some claim is a Christian one, we haven't ever mirrored the Kingdom of Christ.

That's the problem in dealing with humans and their institutions, they're just so darn imperfect.