NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
As someone mentioned earlier Americans are free to not pledge allegiance. For about 100 years there was no pledge and they were some pretty great Americans in that time.
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Should we really pledge our allegiance...
- Thread starter NaasPreacher (C4K)
- Start date
menageriekeeper
Active Member
A couple of things come to mind:
Did Paul renounce his Roman citizenship because Cesear was burning Christians and throwing them to the lions? Or because Rome was a hotbed of sexual perversion(and you can bet abortions occured in many cases. Nuttin new under the sun)?
What other country could you pledge your allegiance too? Is there one that has no policies/laws that you disagree with?
Did Paul renounce his Roman citizenship because Cesear was burning Christians and throwing them to the lions? Or because Rome was a hotbed of sexual perversion(and you can bet abortions occured in many cases. Nuttin new under the sun)?
What other country could you pledge your allegiance too? Is there one that has no policies/laws that you disagree with?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I don't believe I have questioned the need to renounce citizenship. Most nations of the world don't even have a 'pledge of allegiance' to their flag. Americans didn't have one for almost 100 years. My question involves the recitation of a pledge that we are called on to do rarely after we leave school anyway.
Why is it even necessary to start with?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
And the same for you. Civility is the least we can do for fellow image bearers.
I think this a red herring of sorts. I mean who cares what the ACLU thinks? You're OP questions the endorsement and funding of the Federal government of abortions. I don't see anything in current law or in the Federal budget that meets the levels you are ascribing to it.
You're gonna have to cite chapter and verse on this one. From what I read in the actual passed (and signed) bill this isn't there.
Have you read the Roe decision? Just curious because in it and in subsequent rulings related to the issue the Court (or lower courts) never take the position of saying "Hey, we really think everyone should have an abortion in the US" or "Abortions are the best form of birth control." That is endorsement of a practice.
What the legal case does is (and listen I completely disagree with it but let's look it for what it is) lift any law against abortion. It doesn't line women up at clinics. It doesn't wave banner asking women to terminate their pregnancies.
The Court ruling (specifically in Roe) only prohibits laws against the practice but never endorses the practice.
Honestly I know a number of people (of several political affiliations) who morally are against abortion but legally say the government can't tell a woman what to do with her body. (Ironically these same people favor the health care law...weird) They don't want to see more abortions, they want to see more responsibility.
So I guess to satisfy the request in the OP show us where the government (which we pledge allegiance to) has condoned, funded, or endorsed the practice.
Fair enough. Rather that get involved in a detailed debate I really don't have the time to commit myself to I will rephrase the OP.
Should we as Christians pledge our allegiance to a nation which has legalised an action resulting in the slaughter of 50 million innocent children in the last 38 years?
Are we pledging a lie when we say 'liberty and justice for all' when those 50 million people have not had their liberty or justice protected?
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NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I think that goes without saying - but the liberty and justice talked about in the pledge is not being afforded to this innocents killed everyday.
I sometimes include some what of a "Patriotic" sermon along the dates of July 4----here's the "jist" of my heart sharing
One of these days---we're going to be just about as far away from the frailities of democracy---the United States will not even be a small speck of a "blip" on the radar screen of eternity
And remind the people that the Kingdom of God is not run by democracy but by Theocracy---not by the rule of the people but by the rule of God
I get some of the longest blank stares---and get the impression by those stares that their "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" is just gonna roll on up and continue on into the eons of eternity future
Who wants a democracy when democracy is shared by abortionists and murderers and swindlers and money grabbers and people who don't give a rip about who you are but steadily remind you of who they are????
Who wants a democracy where you can't trust its own elected officials and President---regardless of what color they are
Keep seeking those things which are above---where Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and FROM where we anxiously await His return---and I promise you---when He calls me up I won't have any problem saying bye bye to the false freedom of democracy and saying hello to the true freedom of Theocracy!!!
When I preach along these lines on July 4---I get the biggest longest blank stares!!!!!!!!!!!!! But its true---Theocracy stomps all over the pride of someone under the rule of democracy!!!:type:
One of these days---we're going to be just about as far away from the frailities of democracy---the United States will not even be a small speck of a "blip" on the radar screen of eternity
And remind the people that the Kingdom of God is not run by democracy but by Theocracy---not by the rule of the people but by the rule of God
I get some of the longest blank stares---and get the impression by those stares that their "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" is just gonna roll on up and continue on into the eons of eternity future
Who wants a democracy when democracy is shared by abortionists and murderers and swindlers and money grabbers and people who don't give a rip about who you are but steadily remind you of who they are????
Who wants a democracy where you can't trust its own elected officials and President---regardless of what color they are
Keep seeking those things which are above---where Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and FROM where we anxiously await His return---and I promise you---when He calls me up I won't have any problem saying bye bye to the false freedom of democracy and saying hello to the true freedom of Theocracy!!!
When I preach along these lines on July 4---I get the biggest longest blank stares!!!!!!!!!!!!! But its true---Theocracy stomps all over the pride of someone under the rule of democracy!!!:type:
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Oh Ron Regan, where art thou now when we need you?
Ronald Reagan is at this time being ruled by the freedom of Theocracy!!! He is one who is "free indeed"
I think you're creating a false dichotomy. Let me ask you this: given your statement can you list one country that someone could pledge their allegiance to in our modern era?
C4K said:
I think you're taking too strong of a stance on this one. There are many, many Christ honoring people who seek to change things in this country. They also view themselves as faithful patriots and part of that loyalty is to use the systems in place to change things.
Of course the larger issue is one which Christians have wrestled with since the early church. I serve God and not man. So who do I truly pledge allegiance to?
This is the best thought I've read in this thread. Kudos to you! :applause::thumbsup: I'll be using this one in the future. :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the connection between not pledging allegiance and renouncing citizenship.
These two are hardly equal.
It they were the OP would have said something like 'Can Christians remain citizens of a country that has allowed the murder of 50 million innocent children?'
This is about pledging allegiance to a secular state. This is a concept which is only about 125 years old (as far as I know) and is basically unique to the United States. Christians live all over the world without pledging allegiance to the nations.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Excellent point.
There are also many Christians who do not totally object to abortion, and do not consider a fetus a person as such.
Study the theology of the unborn, and their status in Christ. If they were created by God, then God is the author of sin. If they are a person, then they are born in Adam's condemnation,,born in sin.......
Think again before pointing the finger so harshly.
Cheers,
Jim
Study the theology of the unborn, and their status in Christ. If they were created by God, then God is the author of sin. If they are a person, then they are born in Adam's condemnation,,born in sin.......
Think again before pointing the finger so harshly.
Cheers,
Jim
menageriekeeper
Active Member
My bad, I misunderstood what you were asking. How about(tongue in cheek, mind you):
Because the Pledge of Allegiance and patriotism go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. Its a meaningless gesture meant only to broadcast the depths of our patroitism to others and in turn to judge the patriotism of others by. I mean, you gotta have something to go by. How else would you know if the person next to you was a "real American"?
It's like having "in God we Trust" on our money. Those who disagree with it must be atheists or backslidden Christians who are too afraid to stand up for their beliefs. It can't possibly be that money should reflect reality.
Personally (seriously), pledges(and mottos) are a non issue to me. Say it, don't say it, its your actions that count. Are you trying to better this country? Do your actions prove your motives? The answer to those counts much more than saying a pledge.
What?????
A fetus is not a person? Tell that to David.
Psalms 139:14-16 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Just to help, here's the TNIV:
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Indeed.
Who can read that and say that a fetus is not a person? Surely God thought David was a person. Very sad.