Should we really pledge our allegiance...

[NiteShift]

The 'under God' part of the pledge that is so staunchly defended has only been there about 1/2 of the life of the pledge. So Christians took a pledge without God for about 60 years.

The Irish Constitution includes "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity", but you have said in the past that it doesn't reflect reality and is pointless. So why do you make an issue of "Under God" within the US pledge of allegiance?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The Irish Constitution includes "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity", but you have said in the past that it doesn't reflect reality and is pointless. So why do you make an issue of "Under God" within the US pledge of allegiance?

I did the opposite, I contend that the 'under God' is not an issue. Someone else brought up the fact that it is an issue.

I don't understand what the Irish constitution has to do with swearing allegiance to a country. Part of the reason I can hold dual citizenship is because I don't have to swear allegiance to Ireland, just that I will obey and abide by her laws and exercise my duties as a citizen. BTW, I don't think I ever said anything about the Irish constitution and its reference to the Trinity.

Citizenship and swearing allegiance are not synonymous.

 

[NiteShift]

Someone else brought up the fact that it is an issue.

Ok I missed the earlier reference.

BTW, I don't think I ever said anything about the Irish constitution and its reference to the Trinity.

You have mentioned it in past discussions, regarding whether or not the US was founded by Christians. I don't have a link right now.

Citizenship and swearing allegiance are not synonymous.

I recognize that they are not the same. And of course private citizens here are not required to recite the pledge. Many do voluntarliy and it is those people that this thread seems to be directed to. Several have chosen to explain why they do, or at least why they give their allegiance without using the words. And you have tried to show them that they are wrong.

Well, this is a debate forum

 

[HankD]

The 'under God' part of the pledge that is so staunchly defended has only been there about 1/2 of the life of the pledge. So Christians took a pledge without God for about 60 years.

So what? You asked, I answered and explained.
If you don't approve, so be it.

Anyway I showed another reason.

"under God" is implied by the words "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" by our pristine government's documents.


HankD

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So what? You asked, I answered and explained.
If you don't approve, so be it.

Anyway I showed another reason.

"under God" is implied by the words "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" by our pristine government's documents.


HankD

Okay, I am now confused.

Honest question. Are you saying that saying the pledge of allegiance is somehow related to our Christian walk?

 

[HankD]

Okay, I am now confused.

Honest question. Are you saying that saying the pledge of allegiance is somehow related to our Christian walk?

Honest answer: For me, everything in life is related to my Christian walk.

HankD

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Honest answer: For me, everything in life is related to my Christian walk.

HankD

Okay. I agree.

I contend I can be a godly Christian whether I say the secular pledge or allegiance or not.

It is a matter of individual soul liberty.

This thread was simply to discuss whether it is wise or not.

 

[HankD]

Okay. I agree.

I contend I can be a godly Christian whether I say the secular pledge or allegiance or not.

It is a matter of individual soul liberty.

This thread was simply to discuss whether it is wise or not.

Yes, I agree in that which you contend.

May God continue to bless you C4K.


HankD

 

[blackbird]

Suppose------------just suppose---the US passed a law makeing it illegal for a person of a particular race to be citizens

ah la Germany and her law banning Jews in the days of nazi frenzy

Suppose the US passed the same law

Could we as Christians---in all clear conscience---stand and pledge allegience to a country where suddenly it is illegal to be a Jew(or any other religion or race)

Suppose you pledge allegience this morning---and they enact the law this afternoon??? Would you pledge allegience again tomorrow morning???

Suppose at a high school football game-----the school bans Jews from playing(either on the football team or in the HS band)----could you in clear conscience stand and join in singing Francis Scott Key's Star Spangled Banner???? And then could you in all clear conscience put your hand over your heart and pledge allegience????

Suppose Congress got their puny minds together and resurrected some of those Jim Crow laws and started flinging those laws around at will---------would you still want to pledge alligence???

:saint:

 

[Aaron]

Suppose------------just suppose---the US passed a law makeing it illegal for a person of a particular race to be citizens

ah la Germany and her law banning Jews in the days of nazi frenzy

Suppose the US passed the same law

Could we as Christians---in all clear conscience---stand and pledge allegience to a country where suddenly it is illegal to be a Jew(or any other religion or race)

Suppose you pledge allegience this morning---and they enact the law this afternoon??? Would you pledge allegience again tomorrow morning???

Suppose at a high school football game-----the school bans Jews from playing(either on the football team or in the HS band)----could you in clear conscience stand and join in singing Francis Scott Key's Star Spangled Banner???? And then could you in all clear conscience put your hand over your heart and pledge allegience????

Suppose Congress got their puny minds together and resurrected some of those Jim Crow laws and started flinging those laws around at will---------would you still want to pledge alligence???

:saint:

Guys, get real. There has been no law passed legalizing abortion. The only thing that has happened was a law struck down. Any system can be corrupted and perverted. That's not the point in pledging allegiance.

The pledge of allegiance is not a pledge to a president or a judge or to any man. It is made to a republic that is 1) Under God, 2)Indivisible, 3) and with liberty and justice for all. And yes, I have no problem pledging allegiance to that symbol and to that republic, no matter how wicked men may be undermining its principles and perverting its power. It is because of that allegiance good men have tirelessly lobbied for good legislation and good education, and have died on foreign fields.

Let's not forget where the UK and Ireland would be if not for the American blood spilled on two fronts 60 years ago. How do they repay us?
C4 et al sit back in their socialist and sanctimonious judgment of this nation and the inestimatible good it has done the world (a good of which their sorry, Marxist cans are beneficiaries) and in judgment of the Christians who are loyal to it. This is beyond insult.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Suppose------------just suppose---the US passed a law makeing it illegal for a person of a particular race to be citizens

ah la Germany and her law banning Jews in the days of nazi frenzy

Suppose the US passed the same law

Could we as Christians---in all clear conscience---stand and pledge allegience to a country where suddenly it is illegal to be a Jew(or any other religion or race)

Suppose you pledge allegience this morning---and they enact the law this afternoon??? Would you pledge allegience again tomorrow morning???

Suppose at a high school football game-----the school bans Jews from playing(either on the football team or in the HS band)----could you in clear conscience stand and join in singing Francis Scott Key's Star Spangled Banner???? And then could you in all clear conscience put your hand over your heart and pledge allegience????

Suppose Congress got their puny minds together and resurrected some of those Jim Crow laws and started flinging those laws around at will---------would you still want to pledge alligence???

:saint:

That is the point of my question BB. Though I think the legalised killing of 50 million people in the last 40 years to be even more insidious.

 

[blackbird]

Guys, get real. There has been no law passed legalizing abortion. The only thing that has happened was a law struck down. Any system can be corrupted and perverted. That's not the point in pledging allegiance.

The pledge of allegiance is not a pledge to a president or a judge or to any man. It is made to a republic that is 1) Under God, 2)Indivisible, 3) and with liberty and justice for all. And yes, I have no problem pledging allegiance to that symbol and to that republic, no matter how wicked men may be undermining its principles and perverting its power. It is because of that allegiance good men have tirelessly lobbied for good legislation and good education, and have died on foreign fields.

Let's not forget where the UK and Ireland would be if not for the American blood spilled on two fronts 60 years ago. How do they repay us?
C4 et al sit back in their socialist and sanctimonious judgment of this nation and the inestimatible good it has done the world (a good of which their sorry, Marxist cans are beneficiaries) and in judgment of the Christians who are loyal to it. This is beyond insult.

****Bolden emphasis in quote is mine*****

Where does your loyality find a stopping point??? Suppose you find yourself facing some modern day King Nebuchadnezzar(which leaves an individual form and assumes the form of a national republic)?? Suppose some fiery furnace awaits you---and some nut out there is stokeing and fanning the fire and you find the laws of the land switched/changed in such a way(and dont' think for a minute they can't be switched/changed) that you are forced to make a decision----but somewhere up the loyal road you've done went and pledged alliegence--you swore to yourself your loyality to that same country that now has passed a law or has stricken down a law--and forces you to a decision???

 

[HankD]

--you swore to yourself your loyality to that same country that now has passed a law or has stricken down a law--and forces you to a decision???

Same country, different government.

I believe that day is fast approaching.

Admitedly it is difficult to say when the line has been crossed.

Either the "old Glory" flag or the pledge or both will basically be changed or be pronounced illegal or "antiquated".

"under God", "IN GOD WE TRUST" "endowed by their Creator", etc will be stricken from our currency (which may also be changed in format) and documents . Statements such as "the Constitution is a living breathing document", etc., will be put forth to prepare us for these changes, certain doctrines within the sphere of Christian belief will be pronounced "hate crimes" (e.g. "same gender marriage" being sinful), bloodshed legalized, the founding fathers stealthfully demonized, etc...)

Even at that I can be loyal to that government, that pristine government envisioned by the founding fathers, honoring our Creator, acknowledging His gifts of the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and do what I can apart from violence to restore it.

I am not giving up concerning the reviving of that government yet.

HankD

 

[Aaron]

Where does your loyality find a stopping point???

Again, the Pledge is a pledge to a republic under God, with liberty and justice for all, not to an individual or legislature or a legislative act. So your arguments are moot.

But loyalty to Christ isn't the issue with C4, fomenting disloyalty to traditional American values is, and he'll exploit anything to indict conservative America. It's an old liberal ploy, and you're falling for it. This is the same guy who has made post after post insisting that Christians should accept and submit to Obama and his administration despite the fact that he is the most pro-abortion president to ever occupy the office, even going as far as saying that the Christians who criticized him were in disobedience to God.

And you really think abortion is the block he's stumbling over?

 

[blackbird]

Again, the Pledge is a pledge to a republic under God, with liberty and justice for all, not to an individual or legislature or a legislative act. So your arguments are moot.

But loyalty to Christ isn't the issue with C4, fomenting disloyalty to traditional American values is, and he'll exploit anything to indict conservative America. It's an old liberal ploy, and you're falling for it. This is the same guy who has made post after post insisting that Christians should accept and submit to Obama and his administration despite the fact that he is the most pro-abortion president to ever occupy the office, even going as far as saying that the Christians who criticized him were in disobedience to God.

And you really think abortion is the block he's stumbling over?

The issue isn't C4K----the issue is---just how far will YOU go with your pledge????

In your loyality to the flag and its republic---would you move to be disloyal to the Lord Jesus Christ???

Suppose the US moved left----and you can't sit there in your swivel chair and deny it can't-----and they passed a law outlawing Christianity---or even decided they wouldn't move in protection of Christian citizens---I guess what I'm trying to say is----------if Jim Crow laws were enacted upon Christians in a republic society----who would you rise up and be loyal to----------the eternal citizens of Heaven??? or to the finite citizens of the US??

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I am curious. I wonder if the pledge, written by a Socialist, would have had this much vociferous support before 'under God' was added in the the 1950s (54 I think)?

 

[pinoybaptist]

..........
BTW, I just reread my OP. I am not suggesting anything. I am asking a question.

And I suggest, with all due respects, that regardless of what you say, if this type of thread comes under Big Brother's attention, he will still say you are being suggestively seditious and all of us might come under his radar because like The Boss sang, the times they are a-changin'.

 

[HankD]

And I suggest, with all due respects, that regardless of what you say, if this type of thread comes under Big Brother's attention, he will still say you are being suggestively seditious and all of us might come under his radar because like The Boss sang, the times they are a-changin'.

Nah, he's been on the Emerald Isle too long and has probably kissed the Blarney Stone once too many times.

HankD

 

[pinoybaptist]

Nah, he's been on the Emerald Isle too long and has probably kissed the Blarney Stone once too many times.

HankD

lol....:thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

The issue isn't C4K----

It is with me. He's disingenuous. When the socialist are in power we must submit despite abortion, but when the conservatives are in power we musn't because of abortion?

Get real.