Should we really pledge our allegiance...

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This is an old controversy, we all know. But Paul swore by the Lord at Rom. 1:9; Phil. 1:8; 1 Thess. 2:5, 10; Gal. 1:20; 2 Cor. 1:23. These are oaths.

When the high priest said to Jesus, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”, Jesus was under oath when He answered.

A pledge is defined as "A solemn promise or agreement to do or refrain from doing something" and doesn't seem out of line with Paul's words.

I can't see either of your examples as 'oaths.' Paul simply looked to God as his witness. Jesus certainly did not take an oath. If indeed he was 'under oath' it was because it was imposed on Him.

Oath and pledge are synonymous. I don't think anyone has to say a pledge written my a 'Christian Socialist' to be a good citizen.

And I do have a problem pledging loyalty to a nation which has legalised the murder of innocent children.

 

[NiteShift]

I can't see either of your examples as 'oaths.' Paul simply looked to God as his witness. Jesus certainly did not take an oath. If indeed he was 'under oath' it was because it was imposed on Him.

"As God is my witness" is not an oath?

Oath and pledge are synonymous. I don't think anyone has to say a pledge written my a 'Christian Socialist' to be a good citizen.

You're right, no one has to recite a pledge.

And I do have a problem pledging loyalty to a nation which has legalised the murder of innocent children.

Yes well you said earlier in the thread that you were thinking of dual citizenship, US/Ireland. No one here is going to defend the Supreme Court decision on abortion. It seems to me that if that country where you now reside reflects morality in ways superior to the US and you are happy with the decision then go for it.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Yes well you said earlier in the thread that you were thinking of dual citizenship, US/Ireland. No one here is going to defend the Supreme Court decision on abortion. It seems to me that if that country where you now reside reflects morality in ways superior to the US and you are happy with the decision then go for it.

Nice thing is that Ireland is one of the few countries where I can do both ;-) .

Once again, I cannot equate pledging to a man-made oath with good citizenship. One can say the pledge and be a horrible citizen and one can not say the pledge and be a great citizen

Of course a terrible citizen can refuse the pledge and a great citizen say it as well.

The whole point of this thread (once corrected) was to question whether or not Christians who see abortion as murder can pledge their allegiance to a nation which has legalised it. Several good points have been raised. I think the best notion is that we do as our consciences allow or disallow us to do.

I don't think taking the pledge makes one a bad Christian and I don't think refusing it makes one a bad American.

 

[NiteShift]

Once again, I cannot equate pledging to a man-made oath with good citizenship. One can say the pledge and be a horrible citizen and one can not say the pledge and be a great citizen

True. Just as one can take solemn vows of matrimony and be a lousy spouse. But we still do it.

I don't think taking the pledge makes one a bad Christian and I don't think refusing it makes one a bad American.

And yet you have tried for 9 pages to convince others that they shouldn't do it! ("Should WE really..." etc)

Nice thing is that Ireland is one of the few countries where I can do both ;-)

And I hope you are as big a pain in the yazoo to them as you are to us.
Heyyy! I kid you!!

 

[RockRambler]

No one really cares if you recite any pledge or not. It is the attitude of disdain shown towards the land of your birth that is disturbing.

.

Hmmmm...Interesting. Judge others often?

 

[Arbo]

Hmmmm...Interesting. Judge others often?

Pretty hard not to judge when the sacrifices of so many are met with indifference by those who benefit.

 

[Salty]

Pretty hard not to judge when the sacrifices of so many are met with indifference by those who benefit.

Time to repeat one of my stories - its not specifically about the pledge - but close enough for govt work.

While stationed in Germany, in 1972,(just 20+ years after WWII*) our military unit was invited to participate in the induction ceremony of several men into the West German Army. While standing in formation, as the French, and German flags pass by, we were given the command to stand at attention - then as the USA flag passed by, I personally came to RIGID attention. I was not honoring a piece a cloth, but for the country which the Flag stands for. Just some 20+ years previously, my countrymen fought in the nearby Zweibruecken area to protect my freedom from extreme socialism and I am thankful they were victorious. *one man in our unit, had a certain medal he wore. I asked him what it was, his answer - for fighting against the Krauts across those hills there...
I am proud to say the Pledge the Allegiance. How many of you remember "Honor America Day in DC, July 4th, 1970 (that was just 3 weeks before I went on active duty). One of the well-known individuals who participated (I forget the name) said something to the effect, that all families had problems, and the US as a family has some problems to work out, but overall we are the greatest nation in the world! He was so correct. One the greatest things in the country, we have the opportunity to make changes. Unfortunately, so many of us, only complain, and do nothing to correct the injustices. I know some do try, but it may take time, and we can not give up. May we all say "I'm Proud to be an American.

Some have said they can not give allegiance to the Lord and their country, do not properly understand allegiance. Using that logic, then you can not love and honor you wife and your mother at the same time. Actually you can because in part it is a different aspect of love and allegiance. We should show that allegiance even if our country is wrong about someting. I once went to court with my younger brother - for a crime he had committed. I knew he was guilty, but I would not forsake him. In fact the judge told my brother he should be thankful that I cared about him and that he should listen to me. I was not there to condone his actions, but to make a change in his life.
Yes, the USA has some things that desperately needing change, and I will not forsake her. God Bless our families and the USA. And for those who live elsewhere, I trust you love and respect your country

 

[HankD]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

Yes, I can and do say the pledge of allegiance.

I said it in school decades before the Roe v. Wade decision.

The present judicial branch has poisoned the stream of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The present administration(s) since Roe v. Wade has poisoned the hearts and minds of the American citizenry into believing infanticide is a legal "choice".

When I say the pedge it is about the America I knew as a boy whose flag, Constitution and peoples I protected as a veteran.

When I pledge to the flag, I also pledge in my heart to do all that I legally can by prayer, ballot, redress of grievance, giving of my time and resource to return my beloved country to those pure ideals of LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness granted by our Creator as proclaimed by our founding fathers.

When I pledge to the flag, I also petition my Creator to bless her once again with repentance and an abundant measure of His righteousness.


HankD

 

[Salty]

Yes, I can and do say the pledge of allegiance.

...When I pledge to the flag, I also pledge in my heart to do all that I legally can by prayer, ballot, redress of grievance, giving of my time and resource to return my beloved country to those pure ideals of LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness granted by our Creator as proclaimed by our founding fathers.

When I pledge to the flag, I also petition my Creator to bless her once again with repentance and an abundant measure of His righteousness.
HankD

:thumbs: Great response :applause:

 

[Palatka51]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?
Thank you for that question, Roger.

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

This is a question that I have been struggling with of late. I for one think that as long as we still have a voice to speak against abortion we still have hope for changing things then allegiance is still warranted. However, God's anger will not be bridled by our voices whether silenced or not. When He brings judgment it will be far worse than this nation has ever witnessed. God judges nations that mistreats it's innocent citizens and He has done it before to this nation (circa; 1860-1865).

Mel

 

[Palatka51]

Yes, I can and do say the pledge of allegiance.

I said it in school decades before the Roe v. Wade decision.

The present judicial branch has poisoned the stream of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The present administration(s) since Roe v. Wade has poisoned the hearts and minds of the American citizenry into believing infanticide is a legal "choice".

When I say the pedge it is about the America I knew as a boy whose flag, Constitution and peoples I protected as a veteran.

When I pledge to the flag, I also pledge in my heart to do all that I legally can by prayer, ballot, redress of grievance, giving of my time and resource to return my beloved country to those pure ideals of LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness granted by our Creator as proclaimed by our founding fathers.

When I pledge to the flag, I also petition my Creator to bless her once again with repentance and an abundant measure of His righteousness.


HankD

Amen :wavey:

 

[Salty]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

But how many have been saved from abortion - by those excersing their freedons to oppose abortion...?

 

[RockRambler]

Pretty hard not to judge when the sacrifices of so many are met with indifference by those who benefit.

But serving one's country, paying taxes, and volunteering many hours over the last 20 years with the USO I would think speaks louder than words.

Maybe there are different ways of showing patriotism.

 

[Arbo]

But serving one's country, paying taxes, and volunteering many hours over the last 20 years with the USO I would think speaks louder than words.

Maybe there are different ways of showing patriotism.

I agree that there are different ways to show one's patriotism. Still, the objection to taking the Pledge of Allegiance is beyond me.

If you have served your country and volunteered with the USO, I commend you. Paying taxes is another story, since there is little option.

 

[RockRambler]

I agree that there are different ways to show one's patriotism. Still, the objection to taking the Pledge of Allegiance is beyond me.

If you have served your country and volunteered with the USO, I commend you. Paying taxes is another story, since there is little option.

Lol....maybe I should have wrote that as I have never knowingly cheated on my taxes!!!

 

[Arbo]

Lol....maybe I should have wrote that as I have never knowingly cheated on my taxes!!!

...Though tempting as it may be.:smilewinkgrin:

You have a good evening, sir.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Would these feelings of allegiance be the same if the US legalised the murder of school-aged children instead of just the unborn?

 

[HankD]

Would these feelings of allegiance be the same if the US legalised the murder of school-aged children instead of just the unborn?

Yes, but that is not the case.

However if it were the case - then, just as now, this presiding body of government does not represent the republican form of government "of the people, by the people, for the people" founded by the formers of the Constitution guaranteeing the right to LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness to whom I pledge my allegiance.

I make a distinction between my country and the presiding government.

My country still retains "under God" in the pledge, many in the present form of government want it removed because in reproves/convicts them of their sin.

Our pristine government is/was supposed to be of the people, by the people, for the people, but has indeed nearly perished from the face of the earth.

This government is not my government but America remains my country.

However, I intend to obey all the laws of this government apart from legalized murder.

The Supreme Court (Rowe v. Wade) did not interpret the law but violated the law, they changed it to include infanticide and forced it upon "we the people" without the consent of the governed.

That is why I qualified my statements in my previous post and do what I can to pray/vote those reponsible for the inception and maintenance of this government out of office before it evolves into a totalitarian government.

Your example of child-killing is not as far fetched as some may think.
As I already stated, another form of murder is allowed by this government on the other side of the age spectrum.

There is legalized euthanasia allowed by this government in the states of Washington ("Death with dignity") and Oregon ("Assisted Suicide").

I still intend to pledge my allegiance to that government of "we the people" endowed with certain unalienable (Not to be separated, given away, or taken away) rights "by their Creator" to the day I depart planet earth.

When "Old Glory" is changed to the flag of the one-world government then know that that government has been completely overthrown.

HankD

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The 'under God' part of the pledge that is so staunchly defended has only been there about 1/2 of the life of the pledge. So Christians took a pledge without God for about 60 years.

 

[Jim1999]

It legalized killing men and women by hanging, electric chair, gas and now a needle for many, many years. It made segregation legal for many years, leading up to killings, yet through all these years Americans called on that same constitution and voted......We go to war and kill innocent men, women and yes, even children,,and still vote for that country.........

Like calvinism, we endorse the bacics of that belief system, but deny much of what John Calvin stood for. So for a nation. We endorse the basic principles, but it doesn't mean we endorse every little jot or tittle. I pledged allegiance to the King and Queen of England, but that does not include allegiance to the Church of England, which she officially represents.

We practice abortion to save a mother, if the need should arise, and we don't label the parties as killers! Anti-abortion in Ireland I essentially a Catholic belief system, yet that country endorsed killing people in Northern Ireland and England until recent years.

It has not been clearly determined when that "blob" (for lack of medical terminology) becomes a living soul..5 months to actual birth...

I am not supporting the rate of abortion these days, but will adhere to my motto: Abortion if necessary, but not necessarily abortion.

Cheers,

Jim