Should we really pledge our allegiance...

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

That's the problem in dealing with humans and their institutions, they're just so darn imperfect.

But we are dealing not with little 'imperfections' here. We are dealing what would be called genocide if it did not involve unborn children.

 

[NiteShift]

But we are dealing not with little 'imperfections' here. We are dealing what would be called genocide if it did not involve unborn children.

If you found a country that only had "little imperfections" would you pledge allegience to it?

I will just say that majorities oppose using any public money to pay for abortions, so the problem lies elsewhere. When pledging allegience to the flag, that does not mean allegience to the court's decisions.

 

[preachinjesus]

to a nation that for almost forty years has sanctioned and financed infanticide?

About 50 million children legally executed since 1973. Is that kind of nation worthy of a Christian's allegiance and devotion?

I'm not going, for a minute, to agree or condone abortion.

That said I didn't know the Federal government has been paying and forcing women to get these procedures. I didn't realize the Federal government was requiring a one child only policy and forcibly aborting additions.

Because unless you have some kind of evidence or proof that that our Federal government has been doing any of this your argument is moot.

 

[David Lamb]

We've got to take the good with the bad. "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."

People, probably you included, have no problem showing loyalty to their relations, their town, their state, knowing that there is both good & bad in all of them. It seems to be only when we reach the national level that critics see things totally different and warn against allegience.

I think you might have read too much into my post. I was not commenting directly on the question that forms the title of this thread; I was commenting on your earlier message (Post 4 in this thread), where it seemed to me that you were saying that America deserved allegiance because it had sent bibles and Christian missioneries around the world.

All I meant was that America as a country did not do those things; it was American Christians that did them, and still do them. After all, American Jehovah's Witnesses send millions of items of their Watchtower literature round the world. American Scientologists and Mormons do the same sort of thing. But I doubt you would claim that America as a country spreads scientology and the rest.

Sorry for any misunderstanding my earlier message caused.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

If you found a country that only had "little imperfections" would you pledge allegience to it?

I don't know.

I have applied for Irish citizenship, which is possible without sacrificing my US citizenship. If that happens by only obligation is to swear that I will abide my the a laws of the nation and that kind of thing. I don't have swear allegiance to the nation.

 

[Matt Black]

Agreed, David.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I'm not going, for a minute, to agree or condone abortion.

That said I didn't know the Federal government has been paying and forcing women to get these procedures. I didn't realize the Federal government was requiring a one child only policy and forcibly aborting additions.

Because unless you have some kind of evidence or proof that that our Federal government has been doing any of this your argument is moot.

Where did I say that the federal government forces abortion? My point from the very start was that it sanctions and in some cases subsidizes them. To me even the legalisation of baby murder would be enough to make me question pledging allegiance.

 

[preachinjesus]

Your OP was quite clear imho. You've clearly stated the Federal government has endorsed (I don't see laws asking people or forcing people to have abortions) and financed (I don't see budget expenditures from the Federal budget for this.)

Also, what laws has Congress passed on this issue? What direct subsidies from the Federal budget go to perform convenience abortions?

I don't disagree with your idea (of questioning allegiance) but will definitely quarrel with your implication that Congress and the Federal government are funding and endorsing abortion.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I don't disagree with your idea (of questioning allegiance) but will definitely quarrel with your implication that Congress and the Federal government are funding and endorsing abortion.

Fair enough, and you debate like a gentleman. Thanks for that.

I will have to do more research into the funding. I was under the impression that funds have at least been used in the past to fund abortions. Here is a posting from the ACLU describing some abortion that can be federally funded. Their complaint of course is that there is not enough funding for them.

I also think I remember reading that the new health care bill is funding insurance used for abortions?

I would disagree with you that the federal government does not 'endorse' abortions. Roe v Wade made it clear that women have the right to kill their children. I do not think we would accept that for any other group of people.

 

[NiteShift]

I was commenting on your earlier message (Post 4 in this thread), where it seemed to me that you were saying that America deserved allegiance because it had sent bibles and Christian missioneries around the world.

Nope. Roger said that he didn't think he could give his allegience to a country that does such horrible things as the US. I was pointing out that Americans have done, and continue to do good things as well. "Take the good with the bad" I believe I said.

All I meant was that America as a country did not do those things; it was American Christians that did them, and still do them.

Well that is part of America also, whether the government is involved or not, is my point. We are not only bad movies and hoodlums. We also have the good things that we can be proud of.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Nope. Roger said that he didn't think he could give his allegience to a country that does such horrible things as the US.

Not exactly what I said. I was posing this as a debate question - not stating my view.

 

[David Lamb]

Nope. Roger said that he didn't think he could give his allegience to a country that does such horrible things as the US. I was pointing out that Americans have done, and continue to do good things as well. "Take the good with the bad" I believe I said.


Well that is part of America also, whether the government is involved or not, is my point. We are not only bad movies and hoodlums. We also have the good things that we can be proud of.

Thanks for that. It's a little clearer. But in view of your second paragraph, I must stress (in case you thought otherwise) that I certainly do not think of the USA as "movies and hoodlums."

 

[NiteShift]

Not exactly what I said. I was posing this as a debate question - not stating my view.

Alright. My mistake. And with that it's all yours!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Alright. My mistake. And with that it's all yours!

I realise that quite often thread here are started with a question as a premise, but the intent of furthering an agenda. This is an issue I am genuinely dealing with and looking for the views of others.

Thanks

 

[targus]

I realise that quite often thread here are started with a question as a premise, but the intent of furthering an agenda. This is an issue I am genuinely dealing with and looking for the views of others.

Thanks

I am not sure of what it is that you are looking for.

If abortion in Ireland is illegal and you are not required to take a pledge of allegiance but simply promise to obey the laws...

What is the issue for you?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I am not sure of what it is that you are looking for.

If abortion in Ireland is illegal and you are not required to take a pledge of allegiance but simply promise to obey the laws...

What is the issue for you?

Because I am an American and have been wondering about this issue for a while and am seeking the input of others?

Is that not what discussion forums are for?

 

[preachinjesus]

Fair enough, and you debate like a gentleman. Thanks for that.

And the same for you. Civility is the least we can do for fellow image bearers.

I will have to do more research into the funding. I was under the impression that funds have at least been used in the past to fund abortions. Here is a posting from the ACLU describing some abortion that can be federally funded. Their complaint of course is that there is not enough funding for them.

I think this a red herring of sorts. I mean who cares what the ACLU thinks? You're OP questions the endorsement and funding of the Federal government of abortions. I don't see anything in current law or in the Federal budget that meets the levels you are ascribing to it.

I also think I remember reading that the new health care bill is funding insurance used for abortions?

You're gonna have to cite chapter and verse on this one. From what I read in the actual passed (and signed) bill this isn't there.

I would disagree with you that the federal government does not 'endorse' abortions. Roe v Wade made it clear that women have the right to kill their children. I do not think we would accept that for any other group of people.

Have you read the Roe decision? Just curious because in it and in subsequent rulings related to the issue the Court (or lower courts) never take the position of saying "Hey, we really think everyone should have an abortion in the US" or "Abortions are the best form of birth control." That is endorsement of a practice.

What the legal case does is (and listen I completely disagree with it but let's look it for what it is) lift any law against abortion. It doesn't line women up at clinics. It doesn't wave banner asking women to terminate their pregnancies.

The Court ruling (specifically in Roe) only prohibits laws against the practice but never endorses the practice.

Honestly I know a number of people (of several political affiliations) who morally are against abortion but legally say the government can't tell a woman what to do with her body. (Ironically these same people favor the health care law...weird) They don't want to see more abortions, they want to see more responsibility.

So I guess to satisfy the request in the OP show us where the government (which we pledge allegiance to) has condoned, funded, or endorsed the practice.

 

[targus]

Because I am an American and have been wondering about this issue for a while and am seeking the input of others?

Is that not what discussion forums are for?

Just so that I can better understand you point of perspective...

Have you ever voted for a candidate of any political party for any elective office who supports or has supported legalized abortion?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Just so that I can better understand you point of perspective...

Have you ever voted for a candidate of any political party for any elective office who supports or has supported legalized abortion?

Not sure why we have to personalize the discussion, but I will answer your query.

No, not knowingly at least.

 

[Don]

Roger - the one thing I haven't seen from you is your proposed alternative.

The way I see it, you have a couple of choices:
Live as a citizen of the country, pledging to abide by, obey, and enforce all the laws and rules of that country without pledging allegiance to that country; OR
Declare citizenship of another country that more closely aligns with your beliefs.

Are there other alternatives?