Should We Speak of An Angry God?

[Amy.G]

I think a person must realize they have sinned against God and the consequences (wrath) that follow in order to realize they need to be saved.

Before I was saved, I feared hell (with a capital F) and I knew if I had died, I would have gone there.

If someone has no fear of God and His judgement and only accepts Him as a warm fuzzy friend, I don't see salvation being obtained.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think a person must realize they have sinned against God and the consequences (wrath) that follow in order to realize they need to be saved.

Before I was saved, I feared hell (with a capital F) and I knew if I had died, I would have gone there.

If someone has no fear of God and His judgement and only accepts Him as a warm fuzzy friend, I don't see salvation being obtained.

That is correct. We must fear God. Why would anyone want to skip that?

 

[Amy.G]

I think Russell55 had a good point about the Jews understanding God's wrath because they had the law.

Here is what Paul said to the people (Gentiles) at the Areopagus:


Act 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

He never got any farther with his speech because they mocked him and didn't want to hear any more. But Paul seems to have made it clear that a judgement was coming.

 

[TCGreek]

I disagree. But I am curious why one would ever skip it?

I don't think anyone should ever skip mentioning the wrath of God if that is what the Spirit puts on the person who is sharing the gospel's heart.

 

[TCGreek]

I think a person must realize they have sinned against God and the consequences (wrath) that follow in order to realize they need to be saved.

Before I was saved, I feared hell (with a capital F) and I knew if I had died, I would have gone there.

If someone has no fear of God and His judgement and only accepts Him as a warm fuzzy friend, I don't see salvation being obtained.

Now that may have been your experience, but it is not true of everyone who has ever been saved, or will ever be saved.

 

[TCGreek]

I think Russell55 had a good point about the Jews understanding God's wrath because they had the law.

Here is what Paul said to the people (Gentiles) at the Areopagus:


Act 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

He never got any farther with his speech because they mocked him and didn't want to hear any more. But Paul seems to have made it clear that a judgement was coming.

I'm not anti-the wrath of God in the presentation of the Gospel, but it is not always the message that God would put on the evangelizer's heart to share with another.

The rich young ruler, when he asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" was he told about the wrath of God? (Mark 10:17-22).

 

[webdog]

I'm not anti-the wrath of God in the presentation of the Gospel, but it is not always the message that God would put on the evangelizer's heart to share with another.

The rich young ruler, when he asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" was he told about the wrath of God? (Mark 10:17-22).

Same with the Ethiopian Phillip baptized, the jailer about to commit suicide after the prison gates were open freeing Paul, etc.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't think anyone should ever skip mentioning the wrath of God if that is what the Spirit puts on the person who is sharing the gospel's heart.

Why would anyone skip the wrath of God for any reason? What would that reason be ?

 

[webdog]

Why would anyone skip the wrath of God for any reason? What would that reason be ?

Why did Jesus? Phillip? Paul? My pastor?

 

[Revmitchell]

Why did Jesus? Phillip? Paul? My pastor?

I cannot speak to your pastor. But if your would like to show me where the other threee did and then explain why i would be interested to hear your take on it.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm not anti-the wrath of God in the presentation of the Gospel, but it is not always the message that God would put on the evangelizer's heart to share with another.

The rich young ruler, when he asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" was he told about the wrath of God? (Mark 10:17-22).

I'm not trying to argue with you, although it is kinda fun "ganging up you" .:laugh:

At some point a person must be convicted of their sin or they will not turn to God (repent). The Holy Spirit is the one who really is responsible for this conviction, so if someone presents the gospel without the wrath part, the Spirit will still convict.

But I really don't see how you can present the gospel if you don't tell the person why Christ was crucified, which was because of the wrath of God. It fell on Christ instead of me.

 

[TCGreek]

Same with the Ethiopian Phillip baptized, the jailer about to commit suicide after the prison gates were open freeing Paul, etc.

Exactly! The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, but there are many ways to come to Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

Why would anyone skip the wrath of God for any reason? What would that reason be ?

I'm just going by what I see in the Bible and from experience.

 

[TCGreek]

I'm not trying to argue with you, although it is kinda fun "ganging up you" .:laugh:

Good one, Amy!

At some point a person must be convicted of their sin or they will not turn to God (repent). The Holy Spirit is the one who really is responsible for this conviction, so if someone presents the gospel without the wrath part, the Spirit will still convict.

But I really don't see how you can present the gospel if you don't tell the person why Christ was crucified, which was because of the wrath of God. It fell on Christ instead of me.

Yes, a person must see the need for the Savior and come to him in biblical faith.

But it does not follow that this must always happen because a person heard about the wrath of God.

Notice what Paul says in 2 Cor 4:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In this case, it is "seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."

 

[Amy.G]

Good one, Amy!



Yes, a person must see the need for the Savior and come to him in biblical faith.

But it does not follow that this must always happen because a person heard about the wrath of God.

Notice what Paul says in 2 Cor 4:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In this case, it is "seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."

But what does it mean to see the light?

What is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Why do we need a savior?

What happens to us if don't put our faith in the Savior?

What do we avoid if we do put our faith in the Savior?

Why do we need grace?


These are things that we should explain to people. If we don't, they aren't really getting the gospel.

 

[webdog]

I cannot speak to your pastor. But if your would like to show me where the other three did and then explain why i would be interested to hear your take on it.

I'm not sure what you are asking. As I stated earlier, the examples are

a. Jesus with the woman at the well (where was the wrath taught?)
b. Paul with the jailer after the prison gates opened (where was the wrath taught?)
c. Phillip with the Ethiopian (where was the wrath taught?)

 

[TCGreek]

When the jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" were these questions put to him?

But what does it mean to see the light?

Paul says the "light of the glory of the gospel of Christ." It's beholding the magnificence of Christ.

What is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Paul again answers that in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Why do we need a savior?

We need the Savior to be saved from our sins and the wrath of God to come (1 Thess 1:9, 10).

What happens to us if don't put our faith in the Savior?

We are already condemned and on our way to the devil's hell (John 3:18)

What do we avoid if we do put our faith in the Savior?

The wrath of God (Rom 5:9, 10).

Why do we need grace?

We need grace to be saved (Eph 2:8).

Now I've just given you academic answers to your questions.

These are things that we should explain to people. If we don't, they aren't really getting the gospel.

So, were all those questions put to you?

Must all those questions be put before a person?

How come I don't see all of them in Acts 2?

As I said, One way to Heaven, but many ways to get to Christ, who is the way to heaven.

Look at the message Peter preached to Cornelius (Acts 10). I see no mention of the wrath of God.

 

[TCGreek]

No it is not. But then I do not define John 1:13 the way you do. You cannot be converted without understanding the wrath of God. We cannot understand our sin debt without it. And to suggest we can be saved by simply determining to follow God is a notion that belittles the cross. You cannot talk about what Christ did on the cross without covering the wrath of God for that is half the reason Christ was there. How in the world can a crossless gospel ever be preached. The cross is God's wrath. Without it there is no gospel.

Brother, I preach about the cross of Christ and what it means.

But apparently you're missing my point.

There are people who have been saved without hearing an announcement of the wrath of God.

Yes, they must become convicted of their sins and a need of the Savior but it does not follow that they must hear the wrath of God announced.

I have seen people come to the Lord without ever hearing of the wrath of God.

It seems like you're ready to question their salvation.

Now please answer my question.

What question are you speaking of?

 

[Amy.G]

So, were all those questions put to you?

Not all at once. You've got me there. But from the time I was born 'til the time I was saved, all those questions were put to me by someone. Just not all at once.

I'm not saying a person cannot be saved if we (mere humans) don't present every single detail of the gospel. God is greater than that. He certainly doesn't withold salvation from anyone because the gospel wasn't presented perfectly.

But, the whole gospel includes God's wrath because that is why Christ gave His life.

 

[Amy.G]

I have seen people come to the Lord without ever hearing of the wrath of God.

Had they never heard of hell?