should women be ordained?

[HeirofSalvation]

LOL Reminds me of this 'just Scriputre' gem on the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America [ARBCA] website:

http://www.arbca.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=65

This is from their Bible study, oops strike that, their 'Confession study' on Revelatory Gifts in the Present Day:

OW!!!!OW!!!!!:tonofbricks: :BangHead: Maybe you just exposed why Baptists hate creeds so much..............."Bible Teaching????" Pssshaaaawwww...Creedalistic Catholicism at its WORST!!! Why won't people get that.....even if it is good stuff.....no Baptist....no Baptist....wants this garbage......and they WON'T EVEN BOTHER TO READ IT!!!
Wait.....this is a "confession" not a "creed" so....doesn't that make all the difference now???? There, there, you'll feel better after you take this little pill......

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Thomas...on the PB....the discussions remain scriptural....there was no cut and paste, except for scripture references...we can recreate the discussion here..or in person...with just open bibles if you like...it will help you leave some of those false ideas you embrace

and Thomas...it seems as if you highlighted the wrong portion from arbca;
Quote:
As a confessional body, the purpose of this position paper is to identify and clarify the statements contained in the 1689 London Baptist Confession dealing with the stated issues, to answer questions concerning what positions we affirm and deny from a confessional basis, and to preserve the unity of the churches in a controversial day. It is always understood that Scripture must be the final authority over the conscience on this issue. However, the member churches of ARBCA have already confessed that the LBC is a faithful summary of what Scripture teaches and that subscription to it is the basis for our unity as an association of churches. Detailed issues of exegesis can be addressed in messages delivered at our convention or in suggested reading. This is why this position paper deals more with the exposition and application of the LBC to this issue rather than a lengthy exegesis of Scripture.

Allow the BAPTISTS here to explain.........

As a confessional body

Already scares us....maybe shouldn't....but it is what we are.

what positions we affirm and deny from a confessional basis,

Rightly or wrongly....this does not put actual Baptists at ease.....

unity of the churches

At this point....all we see are thumb screws.

However, the member churches of ARBCA have already confessed that the LBC is a faithful summary of what Scripture teaches and that subscription to it is the basis for our unity as an association of churches.

We are fleeing for our very lives from the Papists at this point.... You would make a fantastic Presbyterian......

or in suggested reading.

What they said:

What an actual Baptist hears:

"Read the passages we told you to read....you will see that everything we say is Scriptural....per the "suggested reading" we submitted for you.....after all........

It is always understood that Scripture must be the final authority

" Just don't put much faith in any OTHER un-authorized passages....."

 

[thomas15]

...with just open bibles if you like...it will help you leave some of those false ideas you embrace

....it works very well to cut and paste works of godly persons who have a superior grasp of scripture.Why do you despise godly teachers???

You think that Jesus returned in AD70 making Titus 2:11-13 irrelavant to todays believer in Christ but I'm the one who despises godly teachers and embrace false ideas.

You think that the believer in Christ is actually Israel of the Hebrew Scriptures and that the Bible teaches that we are living in the kingdom promised to the patriarchs and their descendants which is plain as day in the Bible, but I have false theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allow the BAPTISTS here to explain.........

Already scares us....maybe shouldn't....but it is what we are.


Rightly or wrongly....this does not put actual Baptists at ease.....



At this point....all we see are thumb screws.


We are fleeing for our very lives from the Papists at this point.... You would make a fantastic Presbyterian......


What they said:

What an actual Baptist hears:

"Read the passages we told you to read....you will see that everything we say is Scriptural....per the "suggested reading" we submitted for you.....after all........" Just don't put much faith in any OTHER un-authorized passages....."

Hos,

What I find ironic is that what you and some others speak about seems to be a defence of ignorance,,,rather than a defence of the faith once for all time delivered to the saints....
I understand what you are posting,and i will not say you are not right to an extent. Look in this derailed thread alone.....Thomas looks all the way to find that I am a PB member, looks up something I posted,then doubts that because I am a truck driver...that I could not make the post without cutting and pasting someone elses ideas????

I have offered a challenge to all modern baptists that try and say that baptists are not confessional to try and re-write and explain in their own words a confession of faith.


Without looking at the other confessions...sit down and write your own..in your own words.....all those who say..well I just use my bible and the Holy Spirit...well fine...then improve upon what these godly men wrote:thumbs::thumbs:
Of the Holy Scriptures
Of God and the Holy Trinity
Of God's Decree
Of Creation
Of Divine Providence
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the punishment thereof
Of God's Covenant
Of Christ the Mediator
Of Free Will
Of Effectual Calling
Of Justification
Of Adoption
Of Sanctification
Of Saving Faith
Of Repentance unto Life and Salvation
Of Good Works
Of the Perseveraance of the Saints
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
Of the Law of God
Of the Gospel and the Extent of Grace thereof
Of Christian Liberty and Liberty of Conscience
Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day
Of Lawful Oaths and Vows
Of the Civil Magistrate
Of Marriage
Of the Church
Of the Communion of Saints
Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper
Of Baptism
Of the Lord's Supper
Of the State of Man after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
Of the Last Judgement


Hos.....we should all be able to give an answer for the hope that is in us.

if a person asks us what we believe the bible teaches on these topics we should give an answer that is pleasing to God....

How many of us can??? Everyone here says they believe the bible,that is good.

But what does the bible teach on these topics is the real question.

I cannot answer the question any better..{overall} than the confessions,and cathechism i use can. To be honest...No one in here can...no one.

if anyone here cannot improve upon what is written, than they should learn from those who wrote these documents,who had a clearer grasp of scripture.

Do I believe every single sentence in them.....no...for example I do not believe the pope is the man of sin as stated in the 1689 conf. he was a man of sin and a blasphemous imposter...yes...but not the man of sin.

The confession is a guideline, but the scripture is the rule.

 

[thomas15]

Allow the BAPTISTS here to explain.........


We are fleeing for our very lives from the Papists at this point.... You would make a fantastic Presbyterian......

....."

Bingo! Home Run!

 

[Iconoclast]

You think that Jesus returned in AD70 making Titus 2:11-13 irrelavant to todays believer in Christ ut I'm the one who bdespises godly teachers and embrace false ideas.

You think that the believer in Christ is actually Israel of the Hebrew Scriptures and that the Bible teaches that we are living in the kingdom promised to the patriarchs and their descendants which is plain as day in the Bible, but I have false theology.

You think that Jesus returned in AD70

I have never said that Jesus returned in 70 ad......you are a false witness here

making Titus 2:11-13 irrelavant to todays believer in Christ

Titus 2;11-13 is relevant today........................you are a false witness here.

but I'm the one who despises godly teachers and embrace false ideas.

It looks that way from what you have posted...but feel free to vindicate yourself
you seem to despise godly teachers in mocking them,yet you avoid interacting with what they teach avoiding good links posted because any attempted response would show your error.

You think that the believer in Christ is actually Israel of the Hebrew Scriptures

The bible teaches that very thing.....Jesus is the true Israel,and us in Him.

if you deny that you teach a falsehood. If you understand the Covenant,and our Union with Christ...you would know this. In this sense I am much closer to my PB brothers who know these truths ,than to many who deny them here.
I can teach it from all over the bible as it is found everywhere.your dispensational fragmenting of the scriptures is more false ,and man made as you say ,than what the puritans taught from scripture.

and that the Bible teaches that we are living in the kingdom promised to the patriarchs and their descendants which is plain as day in the Bible

yes ....it is plain as day...and I do believe it...and you should also..

lets see if the bible mentions it:

18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

I believe it...Do you???:wavey:

 

[Allan]

Thomas looks all the way to find that I am a PB member, looks up something I posted

I have not had much time at all of late to come here and enjoy a bit of good fun and fellowship.. but I was just looking around a bit and the above stopped me dead in my tracks.

There is very little you have ever stated whereby I would equate your views with that PB's. So I have to ask brother... Do you believe the elect are born eternally saved (thus never needing to have faith to be saved). THIS is the key point in their soterology. All elect are born eternally saved and if they never come to faith in God, or in fact die rejecting all He is... if they are elect they will be saved irregardless.

Then you have temporal salvation which is another story.

I have offered a challenge to all modern baptists that try and say that baptists are not confessional to try and re-write and explain in their own words a confession of faith.

Confessions is an old word that today is called "Statement of faith", they are much the same if not actually holding no difference. However Baptists on the whole have not be 'Creed' oriented, though many (if not a majority) of Reformed Baptists have been.

Leon McBeth, a distinguished professor of church history at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary stated: "A creed excludes, and a confession includes. A creed tells you what you must believe, and a confession affirms what you do believe."

And Charles Deweese, director of the Southern Baptist Historical Society stated: "A confession and a creed can be worded exactly the same way. The thing that determines whether it's a confession or a creed is how it's used," He added, "A confession is a document to which there is a voluntary response," and continued, "A creed is a statement of belief which is in a sense forced on a body--there is an attempt to achieve a level of uniformity or conformity."

Both quotes above and other found here

So on this, I'm not debating you Icon, but stating what you say holds historical water (just don't go swimming to far in it)

How many of us can??? Everyone here says they believe the bible,that is good.

But what does the bible teach on these topics is the real question.

This is why we are to study the scriptures. 'You' should be able to give your answer, not fall back to what another says. It isn't wrong to do so, in fact it helps 'at times', but I have found that most of those who refer back to what another says about what the bible says, instead of telling what they understand the bible saying, has not done enough studying to give an answer or they don't know how to contend with a position another is setting forth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it but I would rather here from one personal studies their view and how they got there. I know what the various Creeds states, and disagree with them biblically on some parts. Yet I also agree many don't know 'why' they disagree.

I cannot answer the question any better..{overall} than the confessions,and cathechism i use can. To be honest...No one in here can...no one.

Not true.. I have met quite a few who did, at least to me. Archangel is one, Tom Bulter is another, Jarther was yet another. I'm just saying the statement is a subjective one.. so yes.. now I'm having fun with you

Crud.. more stuff I have to do.. Have fun and don't get bogged down in junk. Discuss and enjoy.. it helps keep most of the headaches away

 

[annsni]

I have not had much time at all of late to come here and enjoy a bit of good fun and fellowship.. but I was just looking around a bit and the above stopped me dead in my tracks.

There is very little you have ever stated whereby I would equate your views with that PB's.

Are you thinking that he meant Primitive Baptist? I believe he meant Puritan Board.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have not had much time at all of late to come here and enjoy a bit of good fun and fellowship.. but I was just looking around a bit and the above stopped me dead in my tracks.

There is very little you have ever stated whereby I would equate your views with that PB's. So I have to ask brother... Do you believe the elect are born eternally saved (thus never needing to have faith to be saved). THIS is the key point in their soterology. All elect are born eternally saved and if they never come to faith in God, or in fact die rejecting all He is... if they are elect they will be saved irregardless.

Then you have temporal salvation which is another story.


Confessions is an old word that today is called "Statement of faith", they are much the same if not actually holding no difference. However Baptists on the whole have not be 'Creed' oriented, though many (if not a majority) of Reformed Baptists have been.

Leon McBeth, a distinguished professor of church history at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary stated: "A creed excludes, and a confession includes. A creed tells you what you must believe, and a confession affirms what you do believe."

And Charles Deweese, director of the Southern Baptist Historical Society stated: "A confession and a creed can be worded exactly the same way. The thing that determines whether it's a confession or a creed is how it's used," He added, "A confession is a document to which there is a voluntary response," and continued, "A creed is a statement of belief which is in a sense forced on a body--there is an attempt to achieve a level of uniformity or conformity."

Both quotes above and other found here

So on this, I'm not debating you Icon, but stating what you say holds historical water (just don't go swimming to far in it)




This is why we are to study the scriptures. 'You' should be able to give your answer, not fall back to what another says. It isn't wrong to do so, in fact it helps 'at times', but I have found that most of those who refer back to what another says about what the bible says, instead of telling what they understand the bible saying, has not done enough studying to give an answer or they don't know how to contend with a position another is setting forth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it but I would rather here from one personal studies their view and how they got there. I know what the various Creeds states, and disagree with them biblically on some parts. Yet I also agree many don't know 'why' they disagree.


Not true.. I have met quite a few who did, at least to me. Archangel is one, Tom Bulter is another, Jarther was yet another. I'm just saying the statement is a subjective one.. so yes.. now I'm having fun with you

Crud.. more stuff I have to do.. Have fun and don't get bogged down in junk. Discuss and enjoy.. it helps keep most of the headaches away

Allan.....I am not a primitive baptist...pb= puritanboard:laugh: I do not believe what they do on that Allan....I think they have gone a step or two past what the scripture teaches....I fully believe eph 2...we are unsaved until quickened by the Spirit.:thumbs:
I also agree that there are good men here who could do a reasonable job writing a biblical statement. What I wrote was hyperbole ...trying to stress that we all should be able to give solid answers...the best answers we can.

These writings are not the enemy. They are tools that should be used as a basic entrance into the word!

Others were saying I was a romanist...lol what i suggested is a good exersize...write on pen and paper a confession.....see whatyou come up with...maybe husbands and wives could do this together....than compare it to what the men have already done.
I find it very humbling and realize how fragile we are.

This is why we are to study the scriptures. 'You' should be able to give your answer, not fall back to what another says. It isn't wrong to do so, in fact it helps 'at times', but I have found that most of those who refer back to what another says about what the bible says, instead of telling what they understand the bible saying, has not done enough studying to give an answer or they don't know how to contend with a position another is setting forth

.


I agree in part....and disagree at the same time. Some men or sermons I offer here...I have met, questioned and discussed several of these teachings and questions with them. Some of these men while fellow sinners....they have been greatly gifted by God.
Some of them are flat -out brilliant in my view in that God has molded them through lifes trials to be instruments used by God..despite their sinful weaknesses. When I am around them speaking I shut my mouth so I can learn.

If I started to learn classical music two weeks ago...would you like to hear me, or bach, or mozart???

Scripture in speaking of eldership...says not a novice! there are good reasons for that.

 

[thomas15]

Are you thinking that he meant Primitive Baptist? I believe he meant Puritan Board.

Correct Ann. The place where the two biggest questions are 1. are you a believer in paedo or credo baptism? and 2. on what level of illiteracy must a believer be in order to be a dispensationalist?

You know, the place where covenant theology is always assumed but never proved outside of the creeds and confessions.

 

[Greektim]

Correct Ann. The place where the two biggest questions are 1. are you a believer in paedo or credo baptism? and 2. on what level of illiteracy must a believer be in order to be a dispensationalist?

You know, the place where covenant theology is always assumed but never proved outside of the creeds and confessions.

That made me laugh!!!

FYI... you can be a non-dispo and Amill without believing in a covenant of grace or works (or redemption). I are one!

 

[thomas15]

Allan,

I was thinking about consulting Leon McBeth on the subject of creeds and confessions. The thing is I don't really care to prove what I already know to be correct. I have limited time to devote to this forum.

I point out icon's activity on the pb to make the point, while they allow interaction with Baptists who claim belief in some of the historic Baptist confessions, the overall tone of the board is hostile to Baptists in general. If you are not fully devoted to covenant theology you will not survive the pb censors controlled environment.

My impression is, if you take the time to read icons posts on the pb you will get the impression that he is a typical reformed presby with an ego on the side. Sorry if that offends.

 

[thomas15]

That made me laugh!!!

FYI... you can be a non-dispo and Amill without believing in a covenant of grace or works (or redemption). I are one!

I know that and was going to mention that but decided to keep it brief. Thanks for the comment Tim.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allan,

I was thinking about consulting Leon McBeth on the subject of creeds and confessions.

I point out icon's activity on the pb to make the point, while they allow interaction with Baptists who claim belief in some of the historic Baptist confessions, the overall tone of the board is hostile to Baptists in general. If you are not fully devoted to covenant theology you will not survive the pb censors controlled environment.

My impression is, if you take the time to read icons posts on the pb you will get the impression that he is a typical reformed presby with an ego on the side. Sorry if that offends.

You cannot prove what you do not understand Thomas.It is not a lack of time,it is a lack of understanding on your part.
The PB does not allow the nonsense that goes on in here,like you making unfounded accusations then running away and hiding.It does allow biblical interaction on any topic in the historical faith.....no open theism,npp, etc.

I am who I am Thomas...here or there. It may come as a shock to you that there are many godly Presbyterians. Your denial without proof.....of covenant theology is very lame. You claim without merit that it is not there.Millions see it.....and there you show up and say it is not there!

I agree with truth whoever has it,and am still searching it out...I would recommend you do the same. Your "impressions"not withstanding.

 

[thomas15]

You cannot prove what you do not understand Thomas.It is not a lack of time,it is a lack of understanding on your part.

Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet

 

[Skandelon]

Ordained for what? What about a woman chaplain who works in a women's prison? Should she receive prayer and recognition from the church for her calling to her full-time ministry vocation? Sure, why not?

What about a children's minister? Should a male children's minister receive more acknowledgment, prayer, and tax benefits than a woman called to do the same ministry? I think not.

Is ordination really a biblical concept meant only for males in ministry? If so, where does scripture ever say that? Isn't ordination simply the church's acknowledgment of one's calling, giftedness and commitment to pray and support them in that ministry? Why would we do that for every gender?

It appears the issue of headship is a completely different question, yet some seem to equate the two.

Judging by the replies of this thread, it doesn't appear anyone wants to really discuss the topic of the OP???

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Judging by the replies of this thread, it doesn't appear anyone wants to really discuss the topic of the OP???

Of course not because we have already proven that they should be.

 

[Jerome]

Billy Graham's daughter was ordained not long ago.

 

[Tom Butler]

Billy Graham's daughter was ordained not long ago.

Hmm, Jerome, could you cite your source for this? On more than one occasion Mrs. Anne Graham Lotz has said that God did not call her to be ordained, since she is neither a pastor nor elder.

To be clear, Mrs. Lotz did not say she opposed the ordination of women. In fact, I gathered from her comments that she is not. But she didn't want to be ordained.

If she's changed her mind, I couldn't find it.

Or is there another daughter?

 

[Jerome]

Bunny.

NBC29 Aug. 1, 2010 Ruth Graham Ordained

Ruth Graham was ordained at University Baptist Church in Charlottesville on Sunday. . . ."I'm stepping into a calling that God has given me, and into a long heritage of people who have been called into the ministry."