Silly translation.

[Deacon]

So, if this phrase is translated in any way other than "Men and brothers/brethren" then we have lost data about Luke and who he was. This should be unacceptable to a translator. No one has the right to subtract data from the Word of God...

Except that “brethren” is an archaic churchy word - (Luke didn’t use an archaic religious word) and “brothers” in today’s English tends to be taken literally, (not in the way Luke used it).

We translate to communicate meaning.
All translations loose or add data, it is unavoidable. (Translator, traitor)
IMO ‘men and brothers’ misses the mark.

Rob

 

[SavedByGrace]

Now the first word ανδρες alway is addressing men, never women

except that there are exceptions to this, Like in James 1:20, "οργη γαρ ανδρος δικαιοσυνην θεου ου κατεργαζεται" (for the anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God). Where it can hardly mean only "males"! where the only way to translate this, would be "human anger", where "ανδρος" is used in the generic sense, to include females. This can be seen from the previous verse, where both "αδελφοι" (brothers), and "ανθρωπος" (man), are used. All three masculine words are here used to include both "male and female". Kittle informs us that the word "ἀνὴρ...is also used for the human species", including both men and women. Also in Romans 4:8, we read, "μακαριος ανηρ ω ου μη λογισηται κυριος αμαρτιαν" (Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin), which can hardly refer to "males" only!

It is like the masculine noun "ἄνθρωπος", which is used for "males", as in John 7:22; but, also including "females", and thus having the meaning "humans". Likewise, the Greek "υἱός", which is usually translated "son", is also used in the generic sense, to include both sexes, as in Romans 1:14, "οσοι γαρ πνευματι θεου αγονται ουτοι εισιν υιοι θεου", etc. As for verses like Acts 1:16, where we read "ανδρες αδελφοι", it can be translated as "men, brothers", but the latter is in the wider sense as in James 1:20, to include females. I would translate, "men, fellow humans", some modern versions, like the NIV, CSB, render the Greek, "Brothers and sisters", which is a paraphrase to express the sense of the words, and in the context, allowable.

I have just read Acts 1:16 in its context, which I should have done in the first place! Verses 14 and 15 read:

"These all were continuing steadfastly in prayer and in supplication with one mind, with the women (γυνή), and with Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers (ἀδελφός). And in these days, standing up in the midst of the disciples (μαθητής), (and the number of names together being about a hundred and twenty), Peter said"

It is very clear from this, where men and women are gathered togather, that Peter addresses these in verse 16, "ανδρες αδελφοι", which has to include the "men and women" who were present!

 

[SavedByGrace]

What is Peter's audience, those in the upper room, made up of both males and females?

verses 14 and 15 very clearly tell us that both males and females were present!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Peter makes it clear he is speaking to only the men by adding ἄνδρες before ἀδελφοί.

you are wrong here. read the context verses 14-16, and you will see that both men and women were present when Peter addressed them. He would hardly have addressed the men only! As I have shown, ἄνδρες is used in the Bible to include male and female.

 

[SavedByGrace]

From Liddell and Scott Greek-English lexicon, on ἀδελφός

ἀδελφός [ᾰ] , ( ἀ - copul., δελφύς, Arist. HA 510b13 ; cf. ἀγάστωρ ) properly, son of the same mother : I as Subst. , ἀδελφός, ὁ , voc. ἄδελφε; Ep. , Ion. , and Lyr. ἀδελφεός (gen. -ειοῦ in Hom. is for -εόο ), Cret. ἀδελφιός, ἀδευφιός, Leg.Gort. 2.21, Mon.Ant. 18.319: — brother , Hom. , etc.; ἀδελφοί brother and sister , E. El. 536 ; so of the Ptolemies, θεοὶ ἀδελφοί Herod. 1.30 , OGI 50.2 (iii B. C.) , etc.; ἀπ' ἀμφοτέρων ἀδελφεός Hdt. 7.97 : prov., χαλεποὶ πόλεμοι ἀδελφῶν E. Fr. 975 : metaph., ἀ. γέγονα σειρήνων LXX Jb. 30.29 .
2. kinsman , ib. Ge. 13.8 , al.; tribesman, Ex. 2.11 , al.
3. colleague, associate, PTeb. 1.12, IG 12 (9).906.19 ( Chalcis ); member of a college , ib.14.956.
4. term of address, used by kings, OGI 138.3 ( Philae ), J. AJ 13.2.2 , etc.; generally, LXX Ju. 7.30 ; esp. in letters, PPar. 48 (ii B. C.) , etc.: — as a term of affection, applicable by wife to husband, LXX To. 10.12 , PLond. 1.42.1 (ii B. C.) , etc.
5. brother (as a fellow Christian), Ev.Matt. 12.50 , Act.Ap. 9.30 , al.; of other religious communities, e.g. Serapeum, PPar. 42.1 (ii B. C.) , cf. PTaur. 1.1.20 .
6. metaph., of things, fellow , ἀνὴρ τῷ ἀ. προσκολληθήσεται, of Leviathan's scales, LXX Jb. 41.8 . II Adj. , ἀδελφός, ή , όν , brotherly or sisterly , A. Th. 811 , etc.; φύσιν ἀ. ἔχοντες, of Hephaistos and Athena, Pl. Criti. 109c .
2. generally, of anything double, twin, in pairs , X. Mem. 2.3.19 : — also, akin, cognate, μαθήματα Archyt. 1 ; ἀ. νόμοις Pl. Lg. 683a : mostly c. gen., ἀδελφὰ τῶνδε S. Ant. 192 ; ἡ δὲ μωρία μάλιστ' ἀ. τῆς πονηρίας ἔφυ Id. Fr. 925 ; freq. in Pl. , Phd. 108b , Cra. 418e , al., cf. Hyp. Epit. 35 : c. dat., ἀδελφὰ τούτοισι S. OC 1262 , cf. Pl. Smp. 210b .

 

[SavedByGrace]

Brown, Driver, Briggs on the Hebrew word, אח which is translated in the LXX by ἀδελφός.


I. אַחְבָּן אֶחָב, אַחְאָב, אָח, etc. see אחה.

I. אָח630 noun masculine brother (Phoenician אח, Arabic (construct etc.), Sabean אחֿ (suffix אחֿיהו) CISiv.1, 17 and 24 and others, Ethiopic Assyrian a—u compare DlW, Aramaic אַח, ; Palmyreme, Nabataean suffix אחיה אחוהי,); — absolute אָח Gen_24:29 + (Eze_18:10 strike out Co compare ᵑ9 ᵑ6 ᵐ5; Ew Sm אַח; Dl BaEz x defends as = one compare Assyrian a—u) never with article; cstr אֲחִי Gen_10:21 +; suffix אָחִי Gen_4:9 +; אָחִיךָ Gen_4:9 +; אָחִיו Gen_4:2 +; אָחִיהוּ Jer_34:9 Jer_34:3t. etc.; plural אַחִים Gen_13:8 +; so read Hos_13:15 see DeCompl. Var. 23 compare below אָחוּ; construct אֲחֵי Num_27:10 +; suffix אַחַי Gen_19:7 +; אֶחָ֑י 1Sa_20:29 + (but 1Sa_30:23 ᵐ5 We אַחֲרֵי for את אֶחָ֑י); אַחֶיךָ Gen_37:13 +; אֶחָיו Gen_44:14 +?

1 brother, born of same mother (& father) Gen_4:2, Gen_4:8, Gen_4:9, Gen_4:10, Gen_4:11; Gen_27:6, Gen_27:11; Gen_44:20; Gen_49:5; compare Gen_28:2; Gen_29:10 (twice in verse) + Exo_4:14 + often; also of half-brother Gen_20:5, Gen_20:13, Gen_20:16 (on pa-rentage compare Gen_20:12) Gen_37:2, Gen_37:4, Gen_37:5 +, 2Sa_13:4, 2Sa_13:7, 2Sa_13:8 +.

2 indefinite = relative; Lot, of Abraham Gen_13:8; Gen_14:12, Gen_14:14, Gen_14:16; Jacob, of Laban Gen_29:12, Gen_29:15 (nephew); hence of kinship in wider sense; member of same tribe Num_16:10; Num_18:2, Num_18:6; 2Sa_19:13; of same people Exo_2:11 (twice in verse); Exo_4:18; Deu_15:12; Jdg_14:3; Isa_66:20; Neh_5:1, Neh_5:5, Neh_5:8 see especially Lev_19:17 compare Lev_19:18 (ex-tended to include sojourner גֵּר Lev_19:34); of Israel & Judah 2Sa_19:42; Israel & Edom Num_20:14; compare of Ishmael Gen_16:12; Gen_25:18; of friend 2Sa_1:26; 1Ki_9:13; 1Ki_20:32-33, of allies א ׳בְּרִית Amo_1:9.

3 figurative of resemblance Job_30:29 לְתַנִּים הָיִיתִי אָח (|| יַעֲנָה לִבְנוֺת רֵעַ i.e. by reason of his crying, compare Di; Pro_18:9 מַשְׁחִית לְבַעַל הוּא אָח בִּמְלַאכְתּוֺ מִתְרַמֶּה.

4 in phrase one . . . another אָחִיו אִישׁ Gen_9:5; Joe_2:8; Ze Joel 7:10; אָחִיו ֗֗֗ אִישׁGen_13:11 25t + Exo_32:27 (where also same phrase with רֵעֵהוּ & קְרֹבוֺ — see these words — & also אֶחָד אִישׁ,; for development of idiom compare Deu_15:2; Isa_19:2; Jer_34:14 (compare15) 17 Eze_38:21; Hag_2:22; usually of men; of faces of golden cherubim Exo_25:20; Exo_37:9; of scales of crocodile Job_41:9. (אָח fire-pot. see below II. אחח.)

 

[Van]

Lets take another look at Acts 13:26:
The verse starts off with "andres adelphol" the formal greeting under discussion. Here are some of the ways these two words are handled:
1) Fellow children - NIV
2) Brothers - NLT
3) Men brothers - BLB
4) Brethren - NASB
5) Men and Brethren - NKJV
6) Brothers and Sisters - CSB
7) My fellow Israelites - GNT

The first Greek word (andres-G435) has at least three meanings, (1) a male or (2) specifically an adult male or husband, or (3) generically of a group of males and females. Therefore the word could be translated accurately as either "men" or "people."

The next Greek word (adelphol-G80) again has at least three meanings, (1) an immediate male family member, (2) sharing the same national ancestor (Abraham), and (3) born anew believers of both sexes.

Based on the above, the verse could begin "People, Israelites and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent."

 

[John of Japan]

Except that “brethren” is an archaic churchy word - (Luke didn’t use an archaic religious word) and “brothers” in today’s English tends to be taken literally, (not in the way Luke used it).

So I used "brothers." But "brethren" has various usages to this day. For example, John Grisham wrote a best selling novel, The Brethren.

We translate to communicate meaning.

This is so self evident to any half-baked linguist and/or translator, that though I read it and it was helpful, I resent Mildred Larsen's title, Meaning-Based Translation. Here is exactly where dynamic/functional equivalence misses the boat: it assumes that the translator can understand everything in the source text. I'm here to tell you that quite often the translator renders a concept without understanding the meaning. I'm able to translate a lot of things in the Bible that I have not yet understood. But DE seeks to make all meanings explicit, even ambiguous ones or ones hard to understand.

All translations loose or add data, it is unavoidable. (Translator, traitor)

Yes, that is true. However, in this case losing data is avoidable.

IMO ‘men and brothers’ misses the mark.

Rob

And who am I to deny you your opinion!

 

[John of Japan]

you are wrong here. read the context verses 14-16, and you will see that both men and women were present when Peter addressed them. He would hardly have addressed the men only! As I have shown, ἄνδρες is used in the Bible to include male and female.

No, ἀνθρωπος often means everyone (but never exclusively "women"), but ἀνηρ can only mean male adults. Show me a single usage in the NT where women are unambiguously included. All lexicons agree on this. Please point me to where you "proved" otherwise, because I certainly did not see it in your posts. (And FYI, Liddell-Scott is a classical lexicon, not authoritative in koine.)

 

[SavedByGrace]

"Brethren"

No, ἀνθρωπος often means everyone (but never exclusively "women"), but ἀνηρ can only mean male adults. Show me a single usage in the NT where women are unambiguously included. All lexicons agree on this. Please point me to where you "proved" otherwise, because I certainly did not see it in your posts. (And FYI, Liddell-Scott is a classical lexicon, not authoritative in koine.)

Since you are claiming that I am wrong, now you have to present your evidence

 

[Van]

James 1:19-20
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;
for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.

Here is an unambiguous usage of "man" in verse 20 referring to every human, not just males.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, ἀνθρωπος often means everyone (but never exclusively "women"), but ἀνηρ can only mean male adults. Show me a single usage in the NT where women are unambiguously included. All lexicons agree on this. Please point me to where you "proved" otherwise, because I certainly did not see it in your posts. (And FYI, Liddell-Scott is a classical lexicon, not authoritative in koine.)

Another thing is that though classic Greek is different from NT Greek the meanings and usages are mostly the same. NT Greek lexicons like Thayer and Abbott-Smith and A&G and others include Classic Greek usage in their lexicons

 

[Van]

Another thing is that though classic Greek is different from NT Greek the meanings and usages are mostly the same. NT Greek lexicons like Thayer and Abbott-Smith and A&G and others include Classic Greek usage in their lexicons

Yes, when a published source disagrees with a poster, one response might be to claim the published source is wrong. OTOH, when several published sources disagree with a poster, the poster would be wise to admit error. Time will tell...

 

[37818]

Verses 14 and 15 read: . . .

Acts 1:14–15 (CSB)
They all were continually united in prayer, along with the women, including Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
In those days Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters—the number of people who were together was about a hundred twenty—and said,

The text refering to the women, v14 and vs,15-26 referring to male disciples only are, yes, separated by a conjunction.
", , , And in those days . . . " Beginning a new thought.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, ἀνθρωπος often means everyone (but never exclusively "women"), but ἀνηρ can only mean male adults

I am rather surprised by your reply, as you should know better! I have never said that ἀνθρωπος is used exclusively for women, for which there is the Greek, γυνή. As for ἀνηρ not being used to include women, James 1:20, and Romans 4:8, for example.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The text refering to the women, v14 and vs,15-38 referring to male disciples only are, yes, separated by a conjunction.
", , , And in those days . . . " Beginning a new thought.

In verse 14 it is very clear, by γυνή, that WOMEN were present! you are just arguing to show that you are right, even when you are not! See my response to John in #35

 

[37818]

. . . to include women, James 1:20, . . .

Without changing its argument, "For the wrath of a male worketh not the righteousness of God."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Without changing its argument, "For the wrath of a male worketh not the righteousness of God."

and not the female?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Without changing its argument, "For the wrath of a male worketh not the righteousness of God."

look at the context. in verse 19 it says, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath". Here we have "ἀδελφός", and "ἄνθρωπος", both that are used also to include "women" in Scripture, as this very passage shows! What of Romans 4:8? Are you suggesting that this is only about "males"?

 

[Deacon]

and not the female?

There are some places even the Apostle James fears to tread.
He was probably married.

Rob