Simple way that the bible teaches Free Will

[Craig Hooker]

Do you understand what a choice is? Power of choosing between two or options.

Do you understand what options are?

A possibility

How can you have a possibilty that you don't have the ability to preform?

You can't even exegete a dictionary.

I guess we're even then. You can't prove your premise. There is no dictionary that says because a choice is given that that necessarily presumes ability.

So if I say you can fly or not fly this plane and sense I gave you a choice you must have the ability to fly the plane right? Your position is silly

 

[MB]

I guess we're even then. You can't prove your premise. There is no dictionary that says because a choice is given that that necessarily presumes ability.

So if I say you can fly or not fly this plane and sense I gave you a choice you must have the ability to fly the plane right? Your position is silly

What makes you think God wouldn't know whether or not you can fly a plane?
Your presumption is ignorant. If God makes the offer of Salvation then you can accept it or reject it. You would rather not make that choice and deny anyone who would.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Joshua 24:15
... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

In order for that verse to say to choose, we must look at the definitions of "choice"


Webster says

: power of choosing

Choosing what?

Between a number of options or alternative courses of action

Webster says options are.

something that may be chosen: such as
a: an alternative course of action

So if the bible states to choose, that MUST mean (words have actual meanings), we have the power to choose between alternative courses of actions.

Or it's not a choice, and God couldn't say "choose"

If determinism is true, we have no alternative courses of action to what is determined, so we have no options, therefor its not a "choice" And we can't choose.

So choose this day= Choice

Which God you will serve= Options.


Therefor calvinists deny free will, they just make up a proposition to make A = ~A

Let me call this believing 'nothing'.

Beginning with '0' and then equally 0.

0 = 0.

Done.

Nothing.

 

[MB]

Let me call this believing 'nothing'.

Beginning with '0' and then equally 0.

0 = 0.

Done.

Nothing.

Then why believe scripture at all if you only accept part of it. Actually determinism isn't true when it comes to Salvation of man. Not only this but you haven't proven it is. This verse proves it isn't true.
MB

 

[MB]

Freewill is a lie started by Lucifer when he said numerous times: "I will..." The first created being to invoke his will contrary to God's autonomy.

I agree with Martin Luther:
Full text of "Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525""

Excerpts from the above document
An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie
The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.
Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair
Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin
Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.
Freewill is nothing but the chiefest enemy of righteousness and of man s salvation ; because it cannot be, but that some amongst these Jews and Gentiles have acted and endeavoured with the uttermost power of Freewill; and yet with this very Freewill have done nothing but wage war against grace.

I agree with Charles Spurgeon:
The Spurgeon Center

Free-Will - A Slave
"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40

" This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved"

Determinism is the real lie not free will because it is not found in scripture. This is why you will not answer my post. You cannot prove me wrong because determinism is an opinion of men not God. This is not to say some things are not predetermined yet Salvation is not one of them. You believe in Calvinism because you chose to.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Then why believe scripture at all if you only accept part of it. Actually determinism isn't true when it comes to Salvation of man. Not only this but you haven't proven it is. This verse proves it isn't true.
MB

Because, the "choose" option, from God, was extended to Saved souls, man....

Nothing thing.

 

[Craig Hooker]

What makes you think God wouldn't know whether or not you can fly a plane?
Your presumption is ignorant. If God makes the offer of Salvation then you can accept it or reject it. You would rather not make that choice and deny anyone who would.
MB

Thanks for making my point. He would know. Has always known. So if He offers salvation to all yet knows the choice ahead of time is it a genuine offer? Yes or no? Is it possible to chose other than how God knows your going to chose?

 

[MB]

Thanks for making my point. He would know. Has always known. So if He offers salvation to all yet knows the choice ahead of time is it a genuine offer? Yes or no? Is it possible to chose other than how God knows your going to chose?

The choice in Salvation is an expression of believing and loving Christ. It is for all intents and purposes a first act of a true love of God. You see conviction is what changes the man not regeneration. Conviction is so very important. Seeing my Lord sacrifice Him self for me in my heart made me fall in Love with Him.This is when I asked Him to save me. This was His choice as well as mine.
MB

 

[atpollard]

That means simply, you need the ability to preform each option, or it is not a choice.

Why is it impossible to live a sinless life and BE righteous?

(Is that an option/choice or is it not an option/choice)

 

[Craig Hooker]

The choice in Salvation is an expression of believing and loving Christ. It is for all intents and purposes a first act of a true love of God. You see conviction is what changes the man not regeneration. Conviction is so very important. Seeing my Lord sacrifice Him self for me in my heart made me fall in Love with Him.This is when I asked Him to save me. This was His choice as well as mine.
MB

You failed to adress my questions. One more time. If a choice is known ahead of time with no possibility of choosing otherwise was it a genuine choice when it's made?

 

[MB]

You failed to adress my questions. One more time. If a choice is known ahead of time with no possibility of choosing otherwise was it a genuine choice when it's made?

There is no such thing as a choice we are forced to make. You are speaking of fate I'm not a fatalist.
MB

 

[Craig Hooker]

There is no such thing as a choice we are forced to make. You are speaking of fate I'm not a fatalist.
MB

No one said anything about force. Did you intend to answer my question or simply lay down rabbit trails?

I'm not a fatalist either. Not sure hoe that is relevant

 

[AustinC]

No one said anything about force. Did you intend to answer my question or simply lay down rabbit trails?

I'm not a fatalist either. Not sure hoe that is relevant

MB cannot conceive of a Sovereign God who isn't fatalistic. He demands co-rulership via free will.

As I mentioned in my story about the person who fell off a cliff. When a person falls off that cliff and dies, there is no choice they can make. They are dead. The only thing left is to bury the body, or hope that by some miracle the body is brought back to life. Of course, only God could regenerate a dead body.

So the Bible teaches about humanity. In our efforts to rule and save ourselves, we missed the mark and fell off the cliff to our death. Our only option left is to hope that the Savior regenerates us and makes us alive. (Ephesians 2:1-9 expresses this exact scenario.)

There is no "free will" involved.

People who imagine free will salvation are people who refuse to accept how wretched they were/are. They imagine they were/are basically good and by their own capacity they chose God to be their Savior. They reject the teaching of scripture that they were dead, incapable of choice, due to their/our own sin. They cannot conceive of themselves as actually being that horrendously incapacitated by the fall.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning - this thread will be closed no sooner than 730 pm EDT / 430 pm PDT

 

[MB]

No one said anything about force. Did you intend to answer my question or simply lay down rabbit trails?

I'm not a fatalist either. Not sure hoe that is relevant

Calvinism is fatalism and you and Austin are fatalist. You both claim to be elected and cannot prove it because, you both believe in fatalism. How did you become elect before you existed? It was your fate to be elected. Some day you'll fall in a ditch because you are both blind and helpless. It's your fate.. You can't spell the word "How" it's fate. You can't spell either" Eek!
MB

 

[AustinC]

Calvinism is fatalism and you and Austin are fatalist. You both claim to be elected and cannot prove it because, you both believe in fatalism. How did you become elect before you existed? It was your fate to be elected. Some day you'll fall in a ditch because you are both blind and helpless. It's your fate.. You can't spell the word "How" it's fate. You can't spell either" Eek!
MB

LOL
MB, God chose me. That's hardly fatalism. That's God being Sovereign and doing as He wills.

Be honest, what bothers you is that you hate the idea of God being in control...not you.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

There is no such thing as a choice we are forced to make. You are speaking of fate I'm not a fatalist.
MB

[Jdg 4:6-7, 12-13 KJV] 6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, [saying], Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? 7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. ... 12 And they shewed Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam was gone up to mount Tabor. 13 And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, [even] nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that [were] with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon.

God said He would draw Sisera to deliver him into Barak's hand.

Sisera had no choice (freewill) in the matter. I expect if asked, he would say it was his choice to go to the river to engage in battle.

[Jdg 4:14 KJV] 14 And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this [is] the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.

Do you really believe that the will of man overrides God plan?

[Jas 4:13-16 KJV] 13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

 

[MB]

[Jdg 4:6-7, 12-13 KJV] 6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, [saying], Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? 7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. ... 12 And they shewed Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam was gone up to mount Tabor. 13 And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, [even] nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that [were] with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon.

God said He would draw Sisera to deliver him into Barak's hand.

Sisera had no choice (freewill) in the matter. I expect if asked, he would say it was his choice to go to the river to engage in battle.

[Jdg 4:14 KJV] 14 And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this [is] the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.

Do you really believe that the will of man overrides God plan?

[Jas 4:13-16 KJV] 13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

So what you are saying God forced them into a satiation where they could not refuse. That is called forced. "Choice" was what the conversation is about you are replying to.
What I clearly stated is that there is no Choice when you are forced. I said;

Calvinism is fatalism and you and Austin are fatalist. You both claim to be elected and cannot prove it because, you both believe in fatalism. How did you become elect before you existed? It was your fate to be elected. Some day you'll fall in a ditch because you are both blind and helpless. It's your fate.. You can't spell the word "How" it's fate. You can't spell either"

All this while you hope to tell me God can force men to do what ever He wants to. I agree He can, but what's your point? I was telling Austin and Craig exactly what I believe Calvinism is. It is a fatalistic faith. Everything including Salvation just mysteriously happens. Why you guy;s don't even have to believe. When scriptures clearly states;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Who should I believe God or Calvinist?
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

So what you are saying God forced them into a satiation where they could not refuse. That is called forced. "Choice" was what the conversation is about you are replying to.
What I clearly stated is that there is no Choice when you are forced. I said;

All this while you hope to tell me God can force men to do what ever He wants to. I agree He can, but what's your point? I was telling Austin and Craig exactly what I believe Calvinism is. It is a fatalistic faith. Everything including Salvation just mysteriously happens. Why you guy;s don't even have to believe. When scriptures clearly states;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Who should I believe God or Calvinist?
MB

God will have His way. Call it whatever you want.

 

[MB]

God will have His way. Call it whatever you want.

Well it certainly seems to me that it is fatalism but it's all up to God according to Calvinism. Yet I do not believe in Calvinism. There is no evidence that salvation is forced .Yet there is an offer of Salvation by Christ.
.Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
MB