Sin. Where did it come from?

[Jarthur001]

Well, thank the good Lord James. Its Christmas time I guess so we agree.

I guess so Bob. It can happen when I'm not bull headed.

 

[Brother Bob]

Both of us James, I think we must be a lot alike that way. You and I can shut down more threads than anyone else on here. We have to pick out things we agree on until Christmas is over or we both are not going to get nothing for Christmas!!!!

 

[psalms109:31]

You did

Hello psalms109:31



OK..let me ask again. Where was wickedness found? Who put it where it was found?

We did, it was not put in us we did on our own, lets put the blame where they blame goes.

You cannot blame the snake, the devil, the women God created, or God but ourselves.

It came from us. No one wants the easy answer, because they like to blame God

 

[skypair]

I find this statement very disturbing. God does not change! If he could change his triune nature, he would not be God! An "integrated person?" God doesn't need to change to anything different - He does not change, according to the Bible.

Marcia,

God DID change -- or you wouldn't be saved, girl! God became a man, right? Where was the body of God before Jesus? What did He look like -- a embryo? Whatever He was, He became a "babe in swaddling clothes," did He not?

What you are talking about is His CHARACTER which NEVER changes.

But I will further submit this to you -- "integrated" He would be as He created us. That is God/soul, Spirit/spirit, and Jesus/body all in one. God divested Himself of His triune nature so that He could call a people to Himself. IS that as outlandish as you make it out to be?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Anyway, they were three before man and time, why would it change after time? He said, let us make man.

Bob, Marcia,

Possibly -- or perhaps this was said after the rebellion of Lucipher. We are given but a small glimpse of eterntiy past. Before Lucifer, was one unitary God seated on His throne? I don't know that we can establish that or not.

Please let me point out scripture -- Prov 8:22-25, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth;" What do we call someone who has a spirit? Possessed, right? God possessed the Spirit until He was brought forth.

Prov 8:27 -- "When he prepared the heavens, I was there:..." Now we see the Spirit "there" with God. 8:30 says "Then I was by Him..." [ Do you get the picture?

skypair

 

[npetreley]

We did, it was not put in us we did on our own, lets put the blame where they blame goes.

You cannot blame the snake, the devil, the women God created, or God but ourselves.

It came from us. No one wants the easy answer, because they like to blame God

This is the typical knee-jerk reaction one would expect. Of course sin is the responsibility of the sinner, but that is still a secondary cause. The primary cause of all things is God. That's not blaming God, that's simply reality.

The only way you can get around that fact is to pretend God was surprised when He found sin in satan, and surprised by Adam and Eve's disobedience. Otherwise He created satan KNOWING IN ADVANCE that iniquity would be found in him. If He knew, then He could have chosen not to create satan. And if he knew what would happen in the garden, He could have prevented it. The obvious fact that God did NOT prevent it, that God did not prohibit satan from entering the garden, shows that God ordained what would happen.

Finally, the Bible simply says so. The LORD has created ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF, yes even THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF DOOM. Did He make them wicked by forcing them to sin? No. Men are wicked all on their own. Did He create them for a reason, all the while knowing they would be wicked? Yes.

As I said, the reason is stated clearly throughout the Bible, but most clearly in Romans. He makes known His power, longsuffering, justice, righteousness, mercy, etc., all because there is sin. We would see none of these attributes of God if sin did not exist.

 

[Jarthur001]

Finally, the Bible simply says so. The LORD has created ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF, yes even THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF DOOM. Did He make them wicked by forcing them to sin? No. Men are wicked all on their own. Did He create them for a reason, all the while knowing they would be wicked? Yes.

As I said, the reason is stated clearly throughout the Bible, but most clearly in Romans. He makes known His power, longsuffering, justice, righteousness, mercy, etc., all because there is sin. We would see none of these attributes of God if sin did not exist.

well...I would have to agree with this, being that it is in the Bible

 

[Blammo]

well...I would have to agree with this, being that it is in the Bible

It may surprise you to know that I agree with this also.

This is the typical knee-jerk reaction one would expect. Of course sin is the responsibility of the sinner, but that is still a secondary cause. The primary cause of all things is God. That's not blaming God, that's simply reality.

The only way you can get around that fact is to pretend God was surprised when He found sin in satan, and surprised by Adam and Eve's disobedience. Otherwise He created satan KNOWING IN ADVANCE that iniquity would be found in him. If He knew, then He could have chosen not to create satan. And if he knew what would happen in the garden, He could have prevented it. The obvious fact that God did NOT prevent it, that God did not prohibit satan from entering the garden, shows that God ordained what would happen.

Finally, the Bible simply says so. The LORD has created ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF, yes even THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF DOOM. Did He make them wicked by forcing them to sin? No. Men are wicked all on their own. Did He create them for a reason, all the while knowing they would be wicked? Yes.

As I said, the reason is stated clearly throughout the Bible, but most clearly in Romans. He makes known His power, longsuffering, justice, righteousness, mercy, etc., all because there is sin. We would see none of these attributes of God if sin did not exist.

God made the wicked, He did not make them wicked. God did not put sin in man, sin was found in man. God knew it would be found in man and created man anyway. But sin is not a motor, sin is what we do with a motor. When we become our own gods, when we elevate ourselves to equals with God, and/or when we are so full of pride we actually look down on God, that is where sin begins.

Just like the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, lack of the fear of the Lord is the beginning of pride and selfrighteousness. How did Lucifer deceive himself? Was he programmed by God to do so? I don't believe so. I believe God created Lucifer with the ability to think, reason, and make choices on his own. God knew Lucifer would one day use thoses abilities to elevate himself, in his own mind, above God. God created him anyway. Just like God created us with the ability to make independent choices knowing that Satan would deceive us the same way he deceived himself.

God created rocks. Does that mean if I take a rock and hit someone on the head with it, resulting in their death, that God created murder? No! God gave us rocks, hands, and heads, what we do with them is either in obedience of disobedience toward God.

Disobeying God in what He would have us do with what He gave us is where sin comes from.

 

[psalms109:31]

Just a little story

There was an angel that loved God deeply, for that is what he was created to do. he also loved himself the creation of God. He looked in the mirror and said God created a perfect being, and said to himself there is no creation better to me.

God had seen how haughty and proud the angels have become.

So He told them I go to create man first I must prepare a place for them.

As God was preparing a place for them, the one proud angel got 1/3 of the angels to plead against God not to create man, for there will be no better creation than them.

That no one would worship God more than us.

God cast the third of the angels down for their rebellion.

This one for now on had vowed to prove to God that creating man was the worse decision, and hates man with a burning rage for what they had done to him

 

[J.D.]

Okay, here ya go. I don't know how anyone could argue (convincingly) that God could not possibly have created beings without the ability or desire to sin. As far as we humans are concerned, only Jesus did not sin. So we're tempted to believe that any thinking being with a choice would sin sooner or later. But there has to be a reason why only SOME angels rebelled and others did not, eh?

Regardless, let's assume God could have created all beings without the desire or ability to sin. If God had created satan, Adam and Eve without allowing the desire/ability to sin, then sin would never have occurred, and the consequence would be that we would never really know Him or His glory. That's right. God deliberately allowed sin because sin (indirectly) glorifies God. How could we know anything of His wrath, righteousness, justice, mercy, longsuffering, and more unless there was sin? God has to allow sin and punish it in order to show His righteousness and justice. God has to have mercy on sinful creatures in order to demonstrate His love and mercy. Take away sin, and we have no way of witnessing these attributes of God.

Is this Biblical? You bet. Romans:


There you have it. It's all a part of His plan. God makes known His wrath, power, longsuffering, mercy, and more by enduring the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and by saving vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory. Yes, the above is posed as a "what if", but anyone who reads the whole Bible will see it's not a hypothetical at all. God repeatedly says throughout the OT things like this: "I will raise up these wicked people to punish you, and THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD". There you have a classic example of God raising up wicked people for the purpose of making His wrath, righteousness, power and glory known.

As Proverbs says, "The LORD has made all things for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." Compare that to the above quote from Romans. He also says that He will place His law in our hearts so that we may love Him and live. And so we know His mercy and love.

Now, it may seem blasphemous to say that God ordained sin, even if He didn't force anyone to commit sin. The natural human reaction is to ask, if God did this because sin glorifies God, then why not sin all the more so God is even more glorified? Paul answered a similar silly proposal in Romans:

Hello Npetrely, I just came across this post while browsing and just had to congratulate you. I think you've nailed it. Even sin serves an ultimate purpose in the glorification of God!

 

[Marcia]

Marcia,

God DID change -- or you wouldn't be saved, girl! God became a man, right? Where was the body of God before Jesus? What did He look like -- a embryo? Whatever He was, He became a "babe in swaddling clothes," did He not?

What you are talking about is His CHARACTER which NEVER changes.

But I will further submit this to you -- "integrated" He would be as He created us. That is God/soul, Spirit/spirit, and Jesus/body all in one. God divested Himself of His triune nature so that He could call a people to Himself. IS that as outlandish as you make it out to be?

skypair

God the Father did not change and become man.

Jesus did not change - he added human nature to his deity.

God the Father does not have a body.

Are you saying that in this scenario of the future God and Jesus and the HS would lose their distinctions? If so, it seems that you are saying the Trinitarian God would become a Oneness God, and that is contrary to scripture.

Our God is one Godhead with 3 co-eternal beings. God the Father is not God the Son, God the Son is not the HS, the HS is not God. This will not change or else we would have a change in God's nature.

 

[J.D.]

Skypair, this is getting scary. Is this more shade-tree theology or have you been reading new age, LDS, or other such stuff?

 

[skypair]

Marcia, J.D.,

Let's go back to the beginning -- when God created us in His/"Our" image (singular, right?). God is the "Soul" of the Godhead, The Holy Ghost is the "Spirit" of the Godhead, and the Son is the "Body" of the Godhead. You would agree, I think, that the soul and spirit are spiritual just as God and the Spirit are.

Then in time, what does God do regarding recreating us in His/"Our" image (singular)? He justifies our souls to be "the righteousness of God" -- He sanctifies our spirits to be like unto the Holy Spirit -- He glorifies our bodies to the image of Christ.

Now remember Prov 8:22-25 -- the division of the trinity. Now look at Rev 22:4. Has ANYONE EVER seen God's face? No. The Bible says "no one at any time" has seen Him. But Rev 22:4 says we will see His face. How can that be?

Because when ALL things have been subjected unto Christ, then Christ will be subjected to God, 1Cor 15:28. GOD will be "all in all." Does this not tell you that God, the Spirit and the Son are, at the last, One?

As Jesus said, "Marvel not..." If you just take scripture for what it says, you will come to the truth. Or do you have a scripture I haven't considered??

skypair