Since David Cloud's name is being brought in, what are his qualifications/education?

[rbell]

brucebaptist seems to get David Cloud and Jesus mixed up.

 

[Robert Snow]

If you look at Cloud's website, he seems to be more KJVP than KJVO. He certainly doesn't hold to Ruckman's beliefs.

 

[annsni]

If you look at Cloud's website, he seems to be more KJVP than KJVO. He certainly doesn't hold to Ruckman's beliefs.

Does he support the use of other versions? Does he disparage other versions?

That will give you your answer. Just because he doesn't hold to Ruckman's psychotic beliefs doesn't mean he's not KJVO.

 

[tinytim]

David Cloud is a heretic, that teaches KJVOism. Of course that is my opinion of this hero of many other heretics.

 

[Rippon]

David Cloud is a heretic, that teaches KJVOism. Of course that is my opinion of this hero of many other heretics.

I certainly abhor a number of doctrines that Cloud espouses, but he's not a heretic with a capitol H. He is a deceived Christian. He is not willing to receive correction. I think he is perfectly sincere and very proud. He thinks he is preserving the purity of the true church.

 

[annsni]

I certainly abhor a number of doctrines that Cloud espouses, but he's not a heretic with a capitol H. He is a deceived Christian. He is not willing to receive correction. I think he is perfectly sincere and very proud. He thinks he is preserving the purity of the true church.

I do think that some of his other teaching is pretty solid but when you have such a glaring error in your beliefs, it makes it very hard to be able to trust him on other things. A little something here and there is one thing but the KJVO thing is pretty major in my book. If you could be that easily deceived, then what??

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Brethren, let there be peace

My reply is mainly for there to be peace. But let me answer the OP first:

RESEARCH. Brother Cloud has spent an average of at least six hours per day in study since his conversion in 1973. He has built a large research library, which is especially strong in the areas of church history, the history of the Bible, ecumenism, theological modernism, New Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism, the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, contemporary Christian music, and the Roman Catholic Church. The library contains the vast majority of the Baptist and Waldensian histories as well as most of the books that have been published in the last 200 years on the history of the Bible and the Bible version debate. One of the many jewels in this library is a 1641 Fox’s Martyrology. Brother Cloud travels widely to research his subjects. He has done research at the British Library, Oxford University, Cambridge, and at many other important theological libraries and museums and at the headquarters of various religious organizations. He has visited every state in the Union and 28 countries. He has researched the history of the Bible throughout England and Europe and the apostolic churches in western Turkey and Greece. He has done extensive firsthand research into contemporary Christianity. He has attended many large ecumenical conferences with press credentials and has visited influential churches such as Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church in California and Bill Hybels’ Willowcreek Church near Chicago. One historical research trip in March-April 2003 covered eight countries in Britain and Europe and traced the history of Bible translation work and the Roman Catholic Church’s persecution of Bible-believers. He has published 100 major books and video presentations on Cults, Ecumenicalism, Roman Catholicism, New Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Contemporary Christian Music, Church History, the Bible Version-Text issue, the New Age, the Emerging Church, and many other subjects.

http://www.wayoflife.org/wayoflife/whatiswayoflife.html

That is the simple answer to the OP question, irregardless of the OP's motivation. But my reply here is an appeal to all for peace.

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." Romans 14:1

If you consider yourself spiritual and the other weak in the faith, recieve your brother, but not to doubtful disputations or to merely pass judgment on their opinions. To fight and rebuke harshly one another may only serve to confuse a brother or sister who may indeed be weak in the faith.

Now, Romans 14 is in the context of eating or not eating with regard to Jewish customs. But can't it be applied here? One believes he ought to read modern versions of the Bible, and another believes he cannot.

"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way." verse 13.

Can we not try to draw from these Scriptures an application to this subject? It is a difficult subject and very emotional for many people. Are not both people who are at odds here called of God? Elect of God? Saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ whom He shed His blood for?

Then let us fear God and walk carefully with our brethren. Let us be very careful to love our brethren, even with them we disagree with. This subject is an important one because it touches the Word and words of God. And many people are very passionate about that. But we must not allow our passions to rule our spirits.

v.19 "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Let us take this admonition as well as "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." Galatians 5:14-16

The subject of Bible versions and manuscripts is important. If one needs to learn from someone who has some formal training, then learn from such ones. But hear the matter first, before you answer, else you might end up being foolish. And how do we hear a matter? By listening to only the first one who speaks?

Consider the following:

Proverbs 15:28
The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.


This is a serious subject that deserves our attention, study, and patience. But let us not forget love to our brethren in the midst of it.

 

[annsni]

My reply is mainly for there to be peace. But let me answer the OP first:



http://www.wayoflife.org/wayoflife/whatiswayoflife.html

That is the simple answer to the OP question, irregardless of the OP's motivation.

Thank you RB! That tells me some of what I was looking for. I don't see that he studied with anyone but did his own research. I'd love to know of any studies on Biblical languages which I'd hope he did as he did his research.

But my reply here is an appeal to all for peace.

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." Romans 14:1

If you consider yourself spiritual and the other weak in the faith, recieve your brother, but not to doubtful disputations or to merely pass judgment on their opinions. To fight and rebuke harshly one another may only serve to confuse a brother or sister who may indeed be weak in the faith.

Now, Romans 14 is in the context of eating or not eating with regard to Jewish customs. But can't it be applied here? One believes he ought to read modern versions of the Bible, and another believes he cannot.

"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way." verse 13.

Can we not try to draw from these Scriptures an application to this subject? It is a difficult subject and very emotional for many people. Are not both people who are at odds here called of God? Elect of God? Saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ whom He shed His blood for?

Then let us fear God and walk carefully with our brethren. Let us be very careful to love our brethren, even with them we disagree with. This subject is an important one because it touches the Word and words of God. And many people are very passionate about that. But we must not allow our passions to rule our spirits.

v.19 "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Let us take this admonition as well as "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." Galatians 5:14-16

The subject of Bible versions and manuscripts is important. If one needs to learn from someone who has some formal training, then learn from such ones. But hear the matter first, before you answer, else you might end up being foolish. And how do we hear a matter? By listening to only the first one who speaks?

Consider the following:

Proverbs 15:28
The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Proverbs 18:17
He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.


This is a serious subject that deserves our attention, study, and patience. But let us not forget love to our brethren in the midst of it.

Thank you. That is solid counsel brother.

 

[just-want-peace]

I have personally never heard of this guy (Cloud) till this thread, but I do find it disgustingly amazing that it took 67 posts before someone could answer the OP.

The "disgusting" part is from all the "hell-fire & damnation" heaped on the originator of the OP by disciples of the subject in question, with absolutely no attempt to answer the OP.

These characters really create a poisonous atmosphere for a Christian trying to live daily as a Christian.

No wonder there is such animosity toward Christians, if theirs is the standard seen by the world.

 

[tinytim]

I certainly abhor a number of doctrines that Cloud espouses, but he's not a heretic with a capitol H. He is a deceived Christian. He is not willing to receive correction. I think he is perfectly sincere and very proud. He thinks he is preserving the purity of the true church.

See, I would classify him as a capitol H heretic.. Many "Official" Heretics down through church history erred in only one area, but the church still condemned them as a Heretic, especially when they were not willing to receive correction.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

See, I would classify him as a capitol H heretic.. Many "Official" Heretics down through church history erred in only one area, but the church still condemned them as a Heretic, especially when they were not willing to receive correction.

That is shakey reasoning.

 

[TCassidy]

I do find it disgustingly amazing that it took 67 posts before someone could answer the OP.

Actually I answered the OPs question in post #5 on the first page of the thread.

 

[jaigner]

Is asking for credentials on a subject "bashing"?

WHOA!!! Rev. Mitch is gone.

 

[annsni]

WHOA!!! Rev. Mitch is gone.

Oh my word! Well, I hope it's a temporary ban and not a permanent one. I really like Rev. Mitchell!

 

[Rippon]

See, I would classify him as a capitol H heretic.. Many "Official" Heretics down through church history erred in only one area, but the church still condemned them as a Heretic, especially when they were not willing to receive correction.

If you consider him a capital H Heretic, then that would mean that you don't think he's a Christian at all. Believe me, I have issues with David Cloud -- there's a church here that has an American pastor (not my church). A series of Cloud's videos were run. Those videos were in substantial error. I was there. The pastor bought everything Cloud uttered. And, of course, the congregation followed suit. It was very disturbing and frustrating for me.

But despite all that, I can't come out and call him a class 1 Heretic.

 

[DHK]

To add to what Reformed and TCassidy already said, here is some more information about D. Cloud:

DEDICATED to Dr. Bruce Lackey (1934-1988), who, as a Pastor and as the Dean of Tennessee Temple Bible School, helped a generation of preachers to understand and love the Word of God. No man helped me more in this most crucial area of life. Though he read his beloved Greek New Testament every day, he never caused his students or his congregation to question the God-honored English Bible. He was a Bible teacher, not a Bible critic.

The above is the dedication of his Way of Life Bible Encyclopedia.

As brother Cassidy pointed out, he was a student at Tennessee Temple Bible School.

FOR LOVE OF THE BIBLE: The Battle for the King James Version and the Received Text from 1800 to Present
Author: DAVID CLOUD
ISBN: 1-58318-004-4
Pages: 460 (6.5" x 9") Hardcover
This 460-page book traces the history of the defense of the KJV and the Received Text from 1800 to present. The 33-page bibliography is the most extensive in print on the subject. A detailed index is also included. The author spent several thousand dollars researching this material and has written several hundred letters in this connection, communicating with men from around the world who stand for the KJV today. The book includes hundreds of testimonies and biographies; sketches of churches, schools, and organizations which have defended the KJV; a digest of reviews and condensations of major books and articles written in defense of the Old Bible in the past 200 years; excerpts from rare books on this subject which are no longer available; a comprehensive overview of the varied arguments in favor of the KJV. The arguments commonly put forth in defense of the modern versions are shown to be myths. This is used as a textbook at Ambassador Baptist College. 460 pages, 7X9, hardcover. $29.95

To me this shows the amount of study that this man puts into his research. Whether he has a Master's or Doctor's degree becomes irrelevant at this point. The man is a student, you might say a work-horse. He puts a lot of effort into what he does. One might label him a KJVO, but he is not as extreme as Ruckman. He does not take the position that the KJV corrects the Hebrew and the Greek. In fact he is not as extreme as most that I have met. He simply has a platform that allows him to be more vocal about it.

 

[Mexdeaf]

To me this shows the amount of study that this man puts into his research. Whether he has a Master's or Doctor's degree becomes irrelevant at this point. The man is a student, you might say a work-horse. He puts a lot of effort into what he does. One might label him a KJVO, but he is not as extreme as Ruckman. He does not take the position that the KJV corrects the Hebrew and the Greek. In fact he is not as extreme as most that I have met. He simply has a platform that allows him to be more vocal about it.

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with the bolded statement.

 

[annsni]

To add to what Reformed and TCassidy already said, here is some more information about D. Cloud:

The above is the dedication of his Way of Life Bible Encyclopedia.

As brother Cassidy pointed out, he was a student at Tennessee Temple Bible School.

[/B]
To me this shows the amount of study that this man puts into his research. Whether he has a Master's or Doctor's degree becomes irrelevant at this point. The man is a student, you might say a work-horse. He puts a lot of effort into what he does. One might label him a KJVO, but he is not as extreme as Ruckman. He does not take the position that the KJV corrects the Hebrew and the Greek. In fact he is not as extreme as most that I have met. He simply has a platform that allows him to be more vocal about it.

See, did he research the truth on the other side or did he only do research into the one sided subject? It sounds like he has all books that support his belief system - and in the quote, he didn't fault his professor because, even though he read the Greek every day, he didn't fault the "God honored English Bible" which to me reads that even though he was in error reading the Greek, he made sure to never say anything against the KJV which means it was OK. That seems kind of condescending to me.

 

[tinytim]

If you consider him a capital H Heretic, then that would mean that you don't think he's a Christian at all. Believe me, I have issues with David Cloud -- there's a church here that has an American pastor (not my church). A series of Cloud's videos were run. Those videos were in substantial error. I was there. The pastor bought everything Cloud uttered. And, of course, the congregation followed suit. It was very disturbing and frustrating for me.

But despite all that, I can't come out and call him a class 1 Heretic.

You may be right... I may be wrong...

 

[franklinmonroe]

Mr. Cloud is undoubtedly knowledgeable. However, he does his position a disservice by not getting creditialed. It would be analogous to a person that attends a church for many years but never became a member (they should not expect to have the same rights) or some one being 'committed' to another person but never getting married (it is not to be recognized).