Sincerity

[Skandelon]

Let me reiterate -- I don't have a problem with God,

Your responses to God's words prove otherwise.

I'll prove it to you, even though you wouldn't admit it here...

Next time someone says, "There is no room for boasting," you should reply with these words from God, without qualification, without explanation. I dare you. You won't do it. I don't think you would ever say those words because you don't believe those words. You don't believe what God said is true, period.

If you did believe them then you wouldn't hesitate to restate what He said with your definition and explaination. You won't offer that, but instead you just deny it over and over.

Do you know what this reminds me of? When uneducated 'non-Calvinists' say things like, "I don't believe in predestination." I always tell them, "Then you don't believe God's word, because the word 'predestination' is God's word, not Calvins." The question is, "WHAT do you believe about predestination?"

The same thing is happening with you right now. You deny boasting is ever appropriate despite the fact that God says it is appropriate if the boasting is about understanding and knowing Him. You aren't offering another interpretation, an alternate way of approaching this verse...you are just denying it. You are denying the very word of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Right now? What is that, a threat? I'm not going to be bullied by anyone, OK?

No one is denying God's Word so there is no need to pretend, we're simply exposing your false teaching and man-centric gospel of personal achievement.

Now, could I give you the proper meaning of Jeremiah 9:24? Certainly. But why should I but only for you to rend it then turn on me as well?

Could you possibly grow up, just a little bit? Is that even within the realm of possibility?

 

[quantumfaith]

News Flash, the Gospel is "man-centric" and also "GOD-CENTRIC".

 

[The Biblicist]

Your issue is not with what I said, but with what God said. Take it up with him. He said for us to boast in understanding and knowing him. Argue with God all you want, but he said what he said.

Are we to take this response seriously????? No one is arguing with what God said! We are simply correcting the erroneous interpretative inference you placed on what God said. You quoted it and then inferred that God's intent behind his words was that man could boast in knowing God AS A PERSONAL ACHEIVEMENT. However, nothing is said about it being a "personal acheivement" is there?

No, that is your erroneous inference which Jesus Christ repudiated by clearly denying that knowing God is by personal acheivement but ONLY BY REVELATION.

The Bible condemns boasting in personal acheivements but promotes boasting in what man cannot personally acheive but is obtained by God's grace - boasting in the cross - boasting in knowing him - boasting in grace - because all of these things are not matters of personal acheivement.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

 

[The Biblicist]

News Flash, the Gospel is "man-centric" and also "GOD-CENTRIC".

The gospel is CHRIST-CENTRIC only - 1 Cor. 15:4-5! There is nothing about YOU in the gospel except in regard to what Christ did "for us." So the gospel is not "man-centric" unless you are talking about sin! The gospel is not about co-redeemers or -co-saviors or parternship salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

The gospel is CHRIST-CENTRIC only - 1 Cor. 15:4-5! There is nothing about YOU in the gospel except in regard to what Christ did "for us." So the gospel is not "man-centric" unless you are talking about sin! The gospel is not about co-redeemers or -co-saviors or parternship salvation.

Yep. I see we have yet another supporter of knowing God by 'personal achievement'. :wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Are we to take this response seriously????? No one is arguing with what God said!

That's his only recourse, and his accusation is totally unfounded. I know of no Baptist that believes their salvation and knowing the Lord is a personal achievement.

We see we now have at least two who have found reason to boast in themselves before the Lord for their achievements in salvation. Yet Scripture says such boasting is excluded.

It is intriguing that we have a moderator that believes this false teaching, teaches it himself, and then monitors others. Wow, perhaps this is the official position of BB since the powers that be have allowed him to teach this false doctrine. raying:

 

[preacher4truth]

Your responses to God's words prove otherwise.

I've made no response to God's Word, I've only responded to your false teaching CONCERNING His Word, thus you have no proof.

Keep trying, perhaps you can conjure up another false accusation?

 

[franklinmonroe]

God doesn't FORCE people to believe Skan. He COULD, but he doesn't.

I agree that God does not force any one to believe. But to say that God could force people to believe is an invalid statement.

First, I don't think it is consistent with God's character for Him to 'force' people to believe. Therefore (in my opinion), God could not force people to believe. It is not a choice made by God to not force belief on people. He is unable to use force on people into belief (but it is not because people have a superior power to resist). This is my view of how things actually are with God and people.

Second, if you were thinking of a scenario whereby things were different with the character of God and people, although a different issue, the result comes out the same. If a 'God' actually could force people into belief He would not be the God of the Bible. If people were 'robots' and could be 'forced' into belief they wouldn't care ('cause they're mindless robots). So again, even that 'God' cannot force people into belief.

 

[Winman]

I agree that God does not force any one to believe. But to say that God could force people to believe is an invalid statement.

First, I don't think it is consistent with God's character for Him to 'force' people to believe. Therefore (in my opinion), God could not force people to believe. It is not a choice made by God to not force belief on people. He is unable to use force on people into belief (but it is not because people have a superior power to resist). This is my view of how things actually are with God and people.

Second, if you were thinking of a scenario whereby things were different with the character of God and people, although a different issue, the result comes out the same. If a 'God' actually could force people into belief He would not be the God of the Bible. If people were 'robots' and could be 'forced' into belief they wouldn't care ('cause they're mindless robots). So again, even that 'God' cannot force people into belief.

I actually agree with you. What I meant is that God has the power to force someone, as he caused a great storm on the sea for Jonah, and even prepared a whale to swallow him. God did exert an influence on Jonah.

God could cause you to experience 10 minutes of hell. I am sure that would persuade anyone. And actually, if you read Jonah's words, he did seem to experience hell in that whale's belly. I believe the reason he could not stand the bright sun is because his skin was burned by that whale's digestive acids.

But I agree, God is not immoral so he cannot force someone against their will.

Sometimes it is a fine line between persuasion and force.

 

[quantumfaith]

The gospel is CHRIST-CENTRIC only - 1 Cor. 15:4-5! There is nothing about YOU in the gospel except in regard to what Christ did "for us." So the gospel is not "man-centric" unless you are talking about sin! The gospel is not about co-redeemers or -co-saviors or parternship salvation.

That is PRECISELY what I meant it was done and accomplished due to Christ's and the Father's love for his creation. Yes it was about me....and you and everyone else who professes faith in Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

I've made no response to God's Word, I've only responded to your false teaching CONCERNING His Word, thus you have no proof.

Keep trying, perhaps you can conjure up another false accusation?

Incorrect. Go back to the beginning and you took issue with God's word and a basic common definition. You've yet to present an alternative definition, because there isn't one that is different from the one I presented. Thus your issue wasn't with the definition, it was with God's word. Even now you are arguing that there is never a reason to boast despite the FACT that God tells us to boast in knowing him. You just don't like what God said. Admit it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Incorrect. Go back to the beginning and you took issue with God's word and a basic common definition. You've yet to present an alternative definition, because there isn't one that is different from the one I presented. Thus your issue wasn't with the definition, it was with God's word. Even now you are arguing that there is never a reason to boast despite the FACT that God tells us to boast in knowing him. You just don't like what God said. Admit it.

You have changed your position as well. You claimed that this verse was a boast in "personal acheivement" and now you are backing away from that definitive statement.

The fact is we can boast before God and man in those things which CANNOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT but by God alone. Knowing God is something that CANNOT POSSIBLY be attributed to personal acheivement (as you boasted) and you know this as I have quoted Christ's words that deny it is possible. Yes, we can boast in knowing God, but not as personal acheivement, rather because of His grace.

We can boast in the cross becuase it CANNOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO PERSONAL ACHEIVEMENT.

Therefore, the major error in regard to the very text you quoted is YOUR INTEPRETATION as your interpretation ROBS God of His glory (proper credit) and you take it to yourself as "personal acheivement."

 

[preacher4truth]

Incorrect. Go back to the beginning and you took issue with God's word and a basic common definition.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's yet another false accusation. Go fetch proof that I took issue with the verse you quoted and prove your false allegations. I'll be waiting.

 

[preacher4truth]

Therefore, the major error in regard to the very text you quoted is YOUR INTEPRETATION as your interpretation ROBS God of His glory (proper credit) and you take it to yourself as "personal acheivement."

Yes, that is the issue. He yet again and unremittingly proves day by day that he does not get 'not of yourselves'.

In one breath he makes a declarative statement 'salvation is 100% God' then in the next he denies it with 'it is personal achievement'. At first he denied that in post #8 he was saying it was personal achievement, saying he only gave a verse and definition and how dare we conclude anything from that (his pretense) then he twisted all of that by accusing others of having a problem with God's Word when all along it was with his imposed error on the text.

Then later he comes right out and says it is personal achievement and since we were against his dissident interpretation he accused again we're against God (I suppose being against his error to him is the same as being against God Himself) so nonetheless then he argued from that position that it is personal achievement. Then he went back to saying it wasn't what he meant. :laugh:

Can you see what we're dealing with here brother? A twisty path he weaves on erroneous biblical interpretation and goes from one view to the next, denying his statements at one turn, then affirming at the next, then denying yet again, then affirming yet again all the while make false accusations that we are against God's Word, something completely unfounded. It's all just a callow game my friend. :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

So you see knowing the Lord as a personal achievement. I see. Thanks for admitting that out in the open -- you take personal achievement and boast in self.

We 'Calvinists' give all that glory to the Lord and thusly we see the Scripture in it's true intent and meaning.

'...so that no human being might boast in the presence of God' 1 Cor. 1:29

'...so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." 1 Cor. 1:31

Which is exactly what you are doing, boasting in personal (human) achievement. There we have it plain and simple, when we know God (salvation) we are to boast as if it were a personal achievement according to arminian and anti-cal error.

You are responding to a quote from God and the most common understanding of the word HE used. You disagreed but have yet to provide another definition or interpretation. This is tantamount to a non-Calvinist saying, "I don't believe in predestination."

Boasting is God's word, not mine. Deal with HIM.

 

[Skandelon]

"Let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD."

Not a Calvinist in this world would ever boast that he understands and knows God, proving that Calvinism and God's Word do not mix.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not a Calvinist in this world would ever boast that he understands and knows God, proving that Calvinism and God's Word do not mix.

If that passage is interpreted as you do "personal acheivement" then certainly no Calvinist would make such a boast.

However, if that passage is interpreted CORRECTLY to be God's personal acheivement then every Calvinist would make such a boast as they would boast in the cross or boast in grace.

Do we boast in the cross? Yes? Because of personal acheivement? No!

Do we boast in knowing God? Yes? Because of personal acheivement? No! Because Christ plainly repudiates YOUR INTERPRETATION of personal achievement and YOU HAVE NO RESPONSE because you are wrong and you know you are wrong or you would have made some kind of response as it has now been placed before you three different times.

 

[Skandelon]

If that passage is interpreted as you do "personal acheivement" then certainly no Calvinist would make such a boast.

I didn't interpret it like that. I simply read the words of God and gave the most common definition of the word. Those were Websters words, not mine, and I've requested REPEATEDLY an alternate definition...one that would appease the Calvinist, otherwise you are just debating with God. You can't just say, I disagree with that. You have to offer your interpretation of what that means. As it stands you all are not okay with boasting that you know and understand God, yet those are GOD'S words, not mine.

Do we boast in knowing God? Yes? Because of personal acheivement? No!

Ok, so knowing and understanding God is not a personal achievement? Are you sure? I thought you believe this was achieved by those who have been regenerated. A personal achievement, whether accomplished all by yourself, with God's assistance, or by God's irresistible power, is still a personal achievement, isn't it? I mean its not God who knows and understands God in this verse, is it?

Its seems you guys are intentionally difficult for the sake of argument.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not a Calvinist in this world would ever boast that he understands and knows God, proving that Calvinism and God's Word do not mix.

Wrong. Still. Get your facts straight and use them instead of false accusations moderator.

We glory in knowing the Lord, just not as you and others who glory in it as a 'personal achievement'. That is plainly false teaching.

Now, we happen to know the Biblical record shows such boasting as you employ is excluded, and proves you still don't get 'not of yourselves'. :thumbsup: