Sincerity

[preacher4truth]

You are responding to a quote from God and the most common understanding of the word HE used. You disagreed but have yet to provide another definition or interpretation. This is tantamount to a non-Calvinist saying, "I don't believe in predestination."

Boasting is God's word, not mine. Deal with HIM.

Oh, I've dealt with Him as you say, and rightly so, and contrary to your false teaching. We've also dealt with your 'personal achievement' 'gospel'.

It's evident you have NO proof whatsoever. :wavey:

Here's my quote again, one in which you say I am going against God's Word or whatever your false accusation is along those lines:

So you see knowing the Lord as a personal achievement. I see. Thanks for admitting that out in the open -- you take personal achievement and boast in self.

We 'Calvinists' give all that glory to the Lord and thusly we see the Scripture in it's true intent and meaning.

'...so that no human being might boast in the presence of God' 1 Cor. 1:29

'...so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." 1 Cor. 1:31

Which is exactly what you are doing, boasting in personal (human) achievement. There we have it plain and simple, when we know God (salvation) we are to boast as if it were a personal achievement according to arminian and anti-cal error.

Nothing I stated above is having a problem with God's Word. Why not put an end to your ad hominem personal accusations? They're completely baseless.

Now I'll await proof of what you said against me. Again. The problem is, it doesn't exist.

 

[Skandelon]

Oh, I've dealt with Him as you say, and rightly so, and contrary to your false teaching. We've also dealt with your 'personal achievement' 'gospel'.

Ok, so if 'knowing and understanding God' is not your personal achievement then is it God's? Is God the one who is knowing and understanding himself? Is that your view? I have to guess since you won't tell me.

Is God saying you should boast that God knows and understands himself? Like I said to Biblicist, a personal achievement wether accomplished alone, with assistance, or even by an effectual divine power is still a personal achievement, unless of course you think God is wanting us to boast in His knowledge and understanding of Himself...which is kind of silly, don't you think?

 

[preacher4truth]

Do we boast in knowing God? Yes? Because of personal acheivement? No! Because Christ plainly repudiates YOUR INTERPRETATION of personal achievement and YOU HAVE NO RESPONSE because you are wrong and you know you are wrong or you would have made some kind of response as it has now been placed before you three different times.

Correct. He should recant his false teachings and start with the personal achievement gospel he preaches, and then the snowball effect can get started accumulating more and more of his error along the way. :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Personal:
1. of, affecting, or belonging to a particular person rather than to anyone else.
2. of or concerning one's private life, relationships, and emotions rather than matters connected with one's public or professional career.

Achievement:
1. a thing done successfully
2. the process or fact of achieving something.

P4T, have you come to know and understand God? Is that something that has been successfully accomplished in your life? Is that knowing and understanding personal to you and affecting you as an individual rather than just someone around you? If yes, then your knowing and understanding God is a personal achievement. Now, it may be that this personal achievement was a direct result of being regenerated effectually by God, but that doesn't change the fact that YOU, a person, did successfully come to KNOW and UNDERSTAND God. God says you can BOAST in that. Now, can you agree with that or not?

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't interpret it like that

Here is your Webster definition:

Boasting - "talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities." - Skandelon


The verse you quote uses a Hebrew word that is translated in the KJV 117 times "praise" and only 3 times "glory". Perhaps that is why you went to Webster because the Hebrew term will not support your argument?

The Calvinist can "praise" God for knowing Him without any contradiction.


Here is your later interpretative statement:

Knowing God is a "personal achievement' for which God tells us to boast in, unless you have an alternative definition of what boasting entails? - Skandelon

You did not say this is Webster's definition as Webster's definition does not say boasting "is a personal acheivement" but only it may be "ABOUT one's acheivements."

No, this is your intepretation that you believe "knowing God IS" = "a personal acheivement for which God tells us to boats in."

That is not Webster, that is Skandelon's personal declaration of faith.

YOU ARE WRONG! Jesus repudiates your declaration! The Hebrew term translated "glory" repudiates your declaration.

Knowing God is by revelation only and limited to only those that Christ determines to reveal Him to:

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Salvation IS the revelation of God (Jn. 17:3; 2 Cor. 4:6; Mt. 16:17; Gal. 1:15-16). Hence, only the elect can "praise" God that they understand and know God:

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Hence, YOUR ERRORS are clear.

1. You chose Webster instead of the Hebrew term used in Jeremiah 9:24 -" or "praise" NOT "boast."

2. You made a personal declaration that you believed knowing God "is a personal acheivement" rather than quoting Webster.

3. Jesus repudiates your personal declaration.

I simply read the words of God and gave the most common definition of the word. Those were Websters words, not mine, and I've requested REPEATEDLY an alternate definition...one that would appease the Calvinist, otherwise you are just debating with God.

I quoted your Webster definition, which is a perversion of the word God used in Jeremiah 9, and I quoted YOUR INTERPRETATION which was neither a correct interpetation of God's Word, but repudiated by Christ, or a correct definition of the term "glory" used in Jeremiah 9.

You can't just say, I disagree with that. You have to offer your interpretation of what that means.

The term translated "glory" in Jeremiah 9 is translated "praise" 117 times and only "glory" 3 times. We are to "praise" God for understanding and knowing him as this is NOT BY PERSONAL ACHEIVEMENT and thus we cannot "boast" in that sense. We can "boast" in the same way we do of the cross which is NOT BY PERSONAL ACHEIVEMENT either. In this sense "boast" means to "glory" or "praise" God for it.

 

[Skandelon]

And that P4T is how you do it! Finally, an argument!!!

Was that so hard!? Now we can actually do what the forum is created to do and DISCUSS.

The first thing I notice is that you say, "The Calvinist can "praise" God for knowing Him without any contradiction." But doesn't the verse say to boast THAT you know and understand him? You seemed to shift it from boasting that you know him to praising God for knowing Him. The latter is obviously the more 'holy' and desirable, I admit, but just trying to stay true to the text.

Plus, you didn't seem to comment on the fact that something you do as a result of being effectually regenerated can still rightly be deemed a 'personal achievement' in that it does fall within the definition of those terms...though I understand the desire of the Calvinist to qualify that with an explanation as to the source of the power/desire that brought about that personal achievement.

What you may forget is that in a deterministic worldview there is NEVER a 'personal achievement' in the way P4T and you were thinking of it, because everything (including evil ultimately) is 'achieved' by God. But when pressed down, many compatibilistic types, do admit that man is doing things, but he is doing them by decree which wouldn't necessarily negate the concept of personal doing, acting, achieving. And for a Calvinist to boast in that is ultimately to boast in something God determined would happen, right? So, I really didn't see the need to take issue with the choice of words.

 

[Skandelon]

Regarding Hebrew, here is a copy and paste from the lexicon:

to shine
(Qal) to shine (fig. of God's favour)
(Hiphil) to flash forth light
to praise, boast, be boastful
(Qal)
to be boastful
boastful ones, boasters (participle)
(Piel)
to praise
to boast, make a boast
(Pual)
to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
(Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one's boast
(Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
(Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman

I think why many of the translators use the word "boast," is because it starts by saying 'if you are going to boast,' which is to suggest, "hey, if you insist on boasting about something you have done or your knowledge or your understanding, then boast that you know and understand me," which is refocusing their boast or praise off of meaningless things to what is most important.

I point out verses like this because I think Calvinist take things too far. I think you do it believing you somehow are defending God's glory and the praise that is only due Him, but I actually think you go beyond the revelation of the text in order to do so.

For example, I've heard many a Calvinist argue that God will share his glory with no one and quote a bunch of texts from the OT, but those are in the context of God declaring he will not share glory with another god and that we are not to put any other god before Him. In the NT there are several verses which speak of God's gracious choice to share his glory with us, his children.

This example of 'personal achievement' is another such example. You leave no room in your deterministic bubble for God to ever utter phrases like, "Why don't you have faith," because if you're right He should be asking, "Why didn't God give you faith?." Or "Well done my good and faithful servant," because He should say, "Well done me." Again, I think you have good motives because you honestly want God to get all the glory, but you go too far and remove all common sense from scripture. The glory we get from God is laid at his feet eventually, but in order to have something to lay at his feet we need to be able to accomplish something, which He grants us to accomplish...that is technically a "personal achievement," and or boasting/praise for that achievement can be credited back to KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING him.

 

[The Biblicist]

Regarding Hebrew, here is a copy and paste from the lexicon:

Absolutely PATHETIC!!!!!!!!

1. Jesus repudiates your interpretation (and I have shown that was YOUR interpetation, or should I repost the websters definition versus you declarative statement?) and yet you still persist in your error.

2. The Authorized version uses this Hebrew term 165 times and 117 times it is translated "praise" and NEVER ONCE "boast" and yet you persist in error.

3. You were given the ONLY interpretation that does not contradict Christ's words and yet you still persist in error.

Readers, This proves Skandelon is not interested in truth at all and cannot be reasoned with at all. Here is another proof of the correct view of hardening as we are witnessing it in Skandelon.

 

[preacher4truth]

Absolutely PATHETIC!!!!!!!!

1. Jesus repudiates your interpretation (and I have shown that was YOUR interpetation, or should I repost the websters definition versus you declarative statement?) and yet you still persist in your error.

2. The Authorized version uses this Hebrew term 165 times and 117 times it is translated "praise" and NEVER ONCE "boast" and yet you persist in error.

3. You were given the ONLY interpretation that does not contradict Christ's words and yet you still persist in error.

Readers, This proves Skandelon is not interested in truth at all and cannot be reasoned with at all. Here is another proof of the correct view of hardening as we are witnessing it in Skandelon.

He doesn't get it. He can define boasting all he wants to, but he's off base with its application. The boasting is in the Lord, not in man, nor in man's personal achievement of salvation and knowing the Lord, and this is what he is preaching here -- man achieved it and is to boast about it.

His teaching is contrary to Scripture and the true Gospel. He still doesn't get 'not of yourselves' because his message is actually 'of yourselves' and he's gloating in it.

 

[Skandelon]

Absolutely PATHETIC!!!!!!!!

Clearly you are not of the frame of mind to have a rational charitable conversation as I didn't even take issue with your proposal of the word 'praise.' In fact, if you read correctly I thanked you for finally making an argument and presenting an alternate definition...one I actually don't take much of an issue with. Believe it or not, but we can actually agree about some aspects even if we disagree about some finer points of soteriology. I don't believe the word boast or praise are inaccurate for either of our perspectives...nor do I even believe Calvinists (if being objective) have to take issue with the concept of personal achievement, for reasons already explained.

You may be okay with calling each other's efforts and views in a discussion 'pathetic,' but I think it makes one's character appear to be 'pathetic' to do so. So, I'll leave you with this word of rebuke from someone you may respect and actually listen too.

You can have the final word as I'm done... blessings!

"I love the doctrines of grace with all my heart, and I think they are pride-shattering, humbling, and love-producing doctrines. But I think there is an attractiveness about them to some people, in large matter, because of their intellectual rigor. They are powerfully coherent doctrines, and certain kinds of minds are drawn to that. And those kinds of minds tend to be argumentative.

So the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.

I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."

--John Piper​

 

[Squire Robertsson]

With 250 posts, this thread is liable to be closed with any slacking of interest, i.e. eight hours without a new post.

 

[preacher4truth]

With 250 posts, this thread is liable to be closed with any slacking of interest, i.e. eight hours without a new post.

Yeah well you should've seen post 140. Whether or not you did is beside the point and I'm glad you didn't in a sense.

Why? Because a moderator was able to tell us his theological view that knowing the Lord is a personal achievement, and one to gloat in. Such a belief is not Baptist nor is it Scriptural yet he moderates on a Baptist forum? No Baptist believes in a works based personal achievement gospel.

 

[Amy.G]

New Post....

I just wanted to say that there is not one thing in myself (or anyone else ftm) to boast about. We go to God because He first comes to us. We love because He loved first. All good is from God, not me.
One cannot "achieve" knowledge of God. Our knowledge of Him is by His choice to reveal Himself. That is why it's called GRACE.

 

[Skandelon]

Yeah well you should've seen post 140. Whether or not you did is beside the point and I'm glad you didn't in a sense.

Why? Because a moderator was able to tell us his theological view that knowing the Lord is a personal achievement, and one to gloat in. Such a belief is not Baptist nor is it Scriptural yet he moderates on a Baptist forum? No Baptist believes in a works based personal achievement gospel.

That is inaccurate P4T, the word 'gloat' was never used and you have yet to define or explain how what you do, even if done as a result of divine effectual power, is NOT within the definition of personal achievement for which God does say for us to glory in. Do you know and understand God? Yes or no? Or does God understand and know God for you?

Calvinists who objectively deal with these issues don't find the need to deny personal achievement, they just give God glory for that personal achievement. They boast in KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING him because He CAUSED them to...that is actually a point we agree upon, but you wouldn't know that because you are still kicking your dead straw man.

 

[Skandelon]

New Post....

I just wanted to say that there is not one thing in myself (or anyone else ftm) to boast about. We go to God because He first comes to us. We love because He loved first. All good is from God, not me.
One cannot "achieve" knowledge of God. Our knowledge of Him is by His choice to reveal Himself. That is why it's called GRACE.

I agree completely.

I just don't agree with the concept that those who remain in unbelief are there because God didn't come to them too, or love them too. I'm not falling for the Calvinistic delusion that in order for giver to get full credit for giving a gracious gift that He has to do so irresistibly.

 

[preacher4truth]

Please do not lie on this forum P4T, the word 'gloat' was never used and you have yet to define or explain how what you do, even if done as a result of divine effectual power, is NOT within the definition of personal achievement for which God does say for us to glory in. Do you know and understand God? Yes or no? Or does God understand and know God for you?

Calvinists who objectively deal with these issues don't find the need to deny personal achievement, they just give God glory for that personal achievement. They boast in KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING him because He CAUSED them to...that is actually a point we agree upon, but you wouldn't know that because you are still kicking your dead straw man.

Accusing of lying is against bb rules moderator. Both you and ij have done this in this thread. Now I could say the same about all of your false accusations in this thread but I refuse to stoop to the level of you two.

Furthermore I've not lied. Gloating is synonymous with boasting in the manner that YOU are. No Baptist believes knowing the Lord is a personal achievement. Your doctrine here is false and is NOT Baptistic.

 

[Amy.G]

I agree completely.

I just don't agree with the concept that those who remain in unbelief are there because God didn't come to them too, or love them too. I'm not falling for the Calvinistic delusion that in order for giver to get full credit for giving a gracious gift that He has to do so irresistibly.

That's fine. You don't have to agree with Calvinists. But to say knowing God is a personal achievement has nothing to do with being against Cals. It is just plain wrong. It is a works based righteousness.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's fine. You don't have to agree with Calvinists. But to say knowing God is a personal achievement has nothing to do with being against Cals. It is just plain wrong. It is a works based righteousness.

Yep.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I guess that this Baptist forum must accept that teaching since he's a moderator. With his beliefs he moderates Baptists? Unreal.

 

[Amy.G]

They boast in KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING him because He CAUSED them to..

That's like boasting that I'm beautiful and extremely intelligent because God made me that way. :laugh:

Btw, I am neither. lol

 

[Skandelon]

Accusing of lying is against bb rules moderator. Both you and ij have done this in this thread. Now I could say the same about all of your false accusations in this thread but I refuse to stoop to the level of you two.

Furthermore I've not lied. Gloating is synonymous with boasting in the manner that YOU are. No Baptist believes knowing the Lord is a personal achievement. Your doctrine here is false and is NOT Baptistic.

I asked you not to lie, but then after thinking about it I even edited that, you just replied before the edit was complete. My manner of boasting shouldn't be any different than your manner of boasting as both of us believe we know what we know and understand what we understand by God's gracious revelation...we merely disagree as to the irresistible nature of those divine means, but you don't want to engage with my actual views, you'd rather paint me as someone walking around gloating about how I know and understand God all by lonesome.

Sorry, but I'm not the Peliagian boogie man your strawman fallacies paint me out to be. I realize that would be easier for you to debate, as its always easier to debate a raging heretic who actually believes he can do anything without God's help and really teaches that we can merit our salvation, but that is not what I believe or who I am. That is why I don't take your posts very seriously anymore...its because you aren't even debating me, you are debating a monster you've created in your mind.