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Single BIGGEST Biblical Reason Why You Do/Do not believe In TULIP!

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Faith in Christ is salvation, regeneration is the birth of the Human Spirit which was dead die to sin. Man is born Spiritually dead. Since one places faith in Christ at that instant salvation, justification, imputation, regeneration occur immediately. There are more things that go with this but this off the top of my head. It is at the twinkling of an eye, all occur instantly. So faith brings all this to the believer.

That which I bolded I completely disagree with. We are born "spiritually alive" unto God, and when the commandment came to us, sin revived, and I died, per Romans 7. Now if Apostle Paul died after sin revived, then how could he have been born spiritually dead? You can't slay a "dead thing". But, I have addressed this more times than "Carter has liver pills"....LOL. If you want to discuss this further, please start anutter thread, and I'll join in when I can....I just don't want to derail this smooth running thread.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
That which I bolded I completely disagree with. We are born "spiritually alive" unto God, and when the commandment came to us, sin revived, and I died, per Romans 7. Now if Apostle Paul died after sin revived, then how could he have been born spiritually dead? You can't slay a "dead thing". But, I have addressed this more times than "Carter has liver pills"....LOL. If you want to discuss this further, please start anutter thread, and I'll join in when I can....I just don't want to derail this smooth running thread.

Don't want to give an off the top of the head answer right now. I will answer later when I get back to notes and scripture passages.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Iconoclast...



Ha ha! Thanks for the charitable response. :laugh:

Read John 1:6-9...

Verse 9:

If you choose to believe that "every man" does not mean "every man", thats your buisiness. I believe God when He says this.

If you choose to believe that God let millions of people perish and wound up in hell because the missionaries...darn the luck...couldnt get to their tribe before they all died, that also your buisiness.

But I have confidence in Gods ability to get gospel Light..in His perfect way..to those had no word from any christian witnesses before they died.

Particularly when the scriptures inform us that Christ "gives "light" to every human being who has ever lived. (John 1:6-9)

Friend..you have an exceedingly small view of God. Do you deny all of the miracles as well? Do you deny the virgin birth? the bodily ressurection?

I believe ALL of those things, and all of the other miracles as well.
And when God tells me that Christ give "light" (supernatural revelation) to every human being who has ever lived...this conservative evangelical believes him.

Why dont you?

AiC

Well AIC,
Lets see ;
If you choose to believe that "every man" does not mean "every man", thats your buisiness. I believe God when He says this

I believe this verse means everyman , AIC....WHY WOULD YOU THINK i DO NOT BELIEVE THIS?
Oh wait.....I think I see the difference...maybe I believe the other verses near this verse,that help give the explanation of the verse, you know like these verses;
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The darkness comprehended it not...[sounds like human inability, some call it total depravity]
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

That is a far cry from everyman having the opportunity; read here;
"And the Life was THE LIGHT of men." What are we to understand by this? Notice two things: this statement in verse 4 follows immediately after the declaration that "all things were made" by Christ, so that it is creatures, as such, which are here in view; second, it is "men," as men, not only believers, which are here referred to. The "life" here is one of the Divine titles of the Lord Jesus, hence, it is equivalent to saying, "God was the light of men." It speaks of the relation which Christ sustains to men, all men—He is their "light." This is confirmed by what we read in verse 9, "That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." In what sense, then, is Christ as "the life" the "light of men?" We answer, In that which renders men accountable creatures. Every rational man is morally enlightened. All rational men "show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Rom. 2:15). It is this "light," which lightens every man that cometh into the world, that constitutes them responsible human beings. The Greek word for "light" in John 1:4 is "phos," and that it is not restricted to spiritual illumination is plainly evident from its usage in Matthew 6:23, "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness," and also see Luke 11:35; Acts 16:29, etc.

Let no reader infer from what has been said that we are among the number who believe the unscriptural theory that there is in every man a spark of Divine life, which needs only to be fanned, to become a flame. No, we expressly repudiate any such satanic lie. By nature, spiritually, he is "dead in trespasses and sins." Yet, notwithstanding, the natural man is a responsible being before God, to Whom he shall give an account of himself; responsible, because the work of God’s law is written in his heart, his conscience also bearing witness, and this, we take it, is the "light" which is referred to in John 1:4, and the "lighteneth" in John 1:9.
awp
then you say-
If you choose to believe that God let millions of people perish and wound up in hell because the missionaries...darn the luck...couldnt get to their tribe before they all died, that also your buisiness.
God has ordained that millions perish...that is biblical teaching.
Luck has nothing to do with it, the biblical idea would be providence..the outworking of God's eternal plan in time.
Your implicit denial of this fact is a denial of the biblical reality. The world is condemned already....that is why God has ordained missionary activity.
A false theology, leads to a false and unbiblical fantasy world...it seems to me at this point ,that you desire that fantasy world of your imagination, rather than the stark reality of a rebellious ,ungodly world who needs the gospel desperately if they will be saved....the light of nature,psa19, the light of conscience,rom2....are not enough to save.
I did not write it, or choose to believe it. I believe it because it is the biblical teaching. I am okay with God's righteous judgement as are all the saints in Rev.19;
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
I guess these saints were okay with it also!

then we have your "loving" inquiry...
Friend..you have an exceedingly small view of God. Do you deny all of the miracles as well? Do you deny the virgin birth? the bodily ressurection?
I believe the whole council of God...all of it..I do not have to apologise for Gods wrath against sin, or God's plan to save His elect...each one of them, the sheep given by the Father to the Son.

You think you are taking the high ground here, but it is no different than a RC who prays to the saints and says....oh it will all work out mystically, the blessed mother will see to it.
But I have confidence in Gods ability to get gospel Light..in His perfect way..to those had no word from any christian witnesses before they died.

AIC, how did a head-hunter/cannibal who lived 8 or 900 yrs ago.....get this special light or special revelation?? do you know of any such person,who when missionaries get there say....we are already saved?

or like the book of mormon..jesus appeared to the laminites,and nephites, and the american Indians...to be fair,and give them an equal chance?

Paul was mistaken when he wrote this;
20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

So, I guess you could say that I do not believe as you do, in that you have no basis to say the light equals a special supernatural revelation...you are inserting that , going beyond what is written.when you say this;
And when God tells me that Christ give "light" (supernatural revelation) to every human being who has ever lived...this conservative evangelical believes him.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Well AIC,
Lets see ;


I believe this verse means everyman , AIC....WHY WOULD YOU THINK i DO NOT BELIEVE THIS?

Because you argued against it. Thats usually a pretty good sign. :)


Oh wait.....I think I see the difference...maybe I believe the other verses near this verse,that help give the explanation of the verse, you know like these verses;

The darkness comprehended it not...[sounds like human inability, some call it total depravity]

Yes. Total depravity. But...there is hope. Its called the gosple.


That is a far cry from everyman having the opportunity; read here;
awp
then you say-

God has ordained that millions perish...that is biblical teaching.

All who reject the light that is given them will persish. Thats true.


Luck has nothing to do with it, the biblical idea would be providence..the outworking of God's eternal plan in time.

Of course. And God gives every human being an opportunity to recieve eternal life. Those who reject it will will end up with just what they chose. God has ordained that it be that way. If you want to shake your fist and tell God how wrong He is, thats up to you.

your implicit denial of this fact is a denial of the biblical reality. The world is condemned already


Yes, but God says that it is not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to the light. They all wont of course, but its Gods desire that they do

.....that is why God has ordained missionary activity.

Absolutly. But, because of travel limitations millions have died without ever hearing the gosple.

Your response is...Too bad! Tough luck! Guess it was Gods will that they perish!

My Response is scripture...

It is not Gods will that any should perish, but that all should come to the light.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.


A false theology, leads to a false and unbiblical fantasy world

I know.

I wish you would stop doing that. Come back to reality. Come back to the scriptures.

...it seems to me at this point ,that you desire that fantasy world of your imagination,...

A fantasy world? Thats strange...I keep quoting scriptures. :godisgood:


...rather than the stark reality of a rebellious ,ungodly world who needs the gospel desperately if they will be saved....the light of nature,psa19, the light of conscience,rom2....are not enough to save.


Not when people have the gosple, thats correct. But many...millions...have lived and died without hearing the gosple in the usual way.

Your response is "Too bad for them", Darn the luck".

Gods respnse is...

it is not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to the light"

And...

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

You apparently believe that "every man" actually means "some men". I believe. "every man" means just that.

Every man.


I did not write it, or choose to believe it. I believe it because it is the biblical teaching. I am okay with God's righteous judgement as are all the saints in Rev.19;

I guess these saints were okay with it also!

then we have your "loving" inquiry...

I believe the whole council of God...all of it..I do not have to apologise for Gods wrath against sin, or God's plan to save His elect...each one of them, the sheep given by the Father to the Son.

You think you are taking the high ground here, but it is no different than a RC who prays to the saints and says....oh it will all work out mystically, the blessed mother will see to it.

Nonsense.


AIC, how did a head-hunter/cannibal who lived 8 or 900 yrs ago.....get this special light or special revelation??

When you get to heaven, ask them. They will be glad to tell you.

do you know of any such person,who when missionaries get there say....we are already saved?

I have heard testimonies from missionaries who preached the gosple in places like africa or south america. They say that every once in a while a family will come out from the bush and communicate, with tears, that they left all of the native religions because they just *new* it was false. The sun is not God. The pole is not God. The moon is not God. They were persecuted for leaving these falsehoods. They knew that the true God MADE the sun, and the trees and the mood, etc etc. They had been worshipping Him, but they didnt know the specifics. They were overjoyed to finally learn of the "fullness" of the truth God had already revealed to them Himself.

or like the book of mormon..jesus appeared to the laminites,and nephites, and the american Indians...to be fair,and give them an equal chance?

I have nothing to do with the book of morman.



So, I guess you could say that I do not believe as you do, in that you have no basis to say the light equals a special supernatural revelation...

Except for Gods scriptures, of course.

you are inserting that , going beyond what is written.when you say this;

Except for the scriptures I have quoted, of course.

God bless

AiC
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AIC,
thanks for responding,lets see what you offered;
Yes, but God says that it is not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to the light. They all wont of course, but its Gods desire that they do
Yes, but God says that it is not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to the light. They all wont of course, but its Gods desire that they do

Your response is...Too bad! Tough luck! Guess it was Gods will that they perish!

My Response is scripture
A fantasy world? Thats strange...I keep quoting scriptures.


You claim to use scripture, but actually misquote scripture, wresting and mis-using 2pet3:9 out of context, like most all arminians like to do.

So the god you are describing has his will not being done on earth, he wills something but cannot have it happen. he wants people to be saved ,but he himself cannot save them! I do not worship a God like that.

failing to deal honestly with the scriptures leads you to say this about me;

Your response is...Too bad! Tough luck!
If you want to shake your fist and tell God how wrong He is, thats up to you.

Your response is "Too bad for them", Darn the luck".
You apparently believe that "every man" actually means "some men

Of this list not only did I not say that but you twist my words to cover your wrong ideas, but this talebearing does not address the issue honestly. At least you tried to attempt a response
 

Winman

Active Member
So the god you are describing has his will not being done on earth, he wills something but cannot have it happen. he wants people to be saved ,but he himself cannot save them! I do not worship a God like that.

Then you MUST be a Universalist.

Matt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Jesus said whosoever does the will of his Father is his brother, sister, and mother. If everyone is doing the will of the Father as you say, then all men must be saved.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Winman

You adress nobody in your post. That makes it confusing.

Who are you addressing...me, Iconoclast, or someone else?

If me, you are mistaken. I've consistently said that some are lost. (they have chosen to reject Christ) and some are saved.(they have chosen to recieve Christ.)

AiC
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Iconoclast...

You claim to use scripture, but actually misquote scripture, wresting and mis-using 2pet3:9 out of context, like most all arminians like to do.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Those (((eeevil))) arminians! Lock the doors! Batton the hatches! Shelter the kids!

Actually, I cant recall ever refering to myself as an "arminian" before, (I could be mistaken about that, though) as I prefer the terms "christian", evangelical, or baptist (in that order) to describe myself.

At one time in the past I was leaning towards Calvinism...but I forsook it.

AiC
 
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