Single BIGGEST Biblical Reason Why You Do/Do not believe In TULIP!

[Tom Butler]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Almost, but no cigar. Christ died for "our" sins is not the same as Christ died for "your" sins.

A distinction without a difference. This from the reformed camp that maintain "whosoever believes" in John 3:16 means "everyone who believes" and "the whole world" actually means "many races." Irony noted.

Ah, but a distinction nonetheless. My request was for scripture which says "Jesus died for you," or "Jesus died for your sins."

Since there is widespread use of those expressions, surely we can find an example in scripture where somebody says it.

 

[Tom Butler]

In the Light, since you brought it up, exegete "world" in this verse:

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.

Looks like something less than everybody, to me.

 

[Alive in Christ]

AiC,please go line-by-line in the above post and tell me why you diasagree.

OK

Rippon: Well,you are right in one way,He's not up in Heaven picking folks to save now. The Lord chose the ones He was to save before the world was formed.

But the gospel is...

Whosoever will may come

It is NOT....

Whosoever I arbitrarily picked to be with me in heaven can come.

Rippon: He has the perfect right to select some and pass by others since all of us deserve damnation.

Except that has clearly said in the scriptures that the door is open to the "whosoever wills" to come.

Rippon: He mercies those He chooses to mercy. He also hardens those whom He wishes to harden.

But His gosple is...

Whosoever will, may come

Not "whosoever I "mercy" may come, but the others are shut out.

The gosple is...

Whosever will, may come

Rippon: Biblical election doesn't operate under Democratic principles. The Lord elects. That automatically means He doesn't chose each and every person who has,is,and shall live.

God is doing NO choosing regarding this.

WE are the ones who choose...

Come to me, all you who are weary, and heavy laden, and I will give you rest

And the Spirit and the Bride say come! And let him you hears, Come! and let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life, freely.

How clear does God have to make it!


Every human being is given revelation that can be understood and heeded, with the invitation to partake of the gift of eternal life. Usually, it is the gosple. But for those who live their entire life, and through no fault of their own, never hear the gosple...a specific revelation from God is given to them, that they can understand and heed, or reject. (John 1:6-9)

(some may disagree with me on that point, but thats ok.)


Every human being ever born has the opportunity to either accept, or reject, the gift of eternal life.

God is not choosing some people, and rejecting other people.

The door is open. WE are either choosing, or rejecting, God.

His arms are open wide to all who will come.

Based on the testimony of the scriptures. I can not fathom any other option.

Praise God for His wonderful provision

The really sad part is that the scriptures indicate that more will reject His offer of eternal life, while less will accept.

 

[Iconoclast]

Every human being is given revelation that can be understood and heeded, with the invitation to partake of the gift of eternal life. Usually, it is the gosple. But for those who live their entire life, and through no fault of their own, never hear the gosple...a specific revelation from God is given to them, that they can understand and heed, or reject.

to either accept, or reject, the gift of eternal life.

Every human being ever born has the opportunity
where did you get this unbiblical idea from??? a specific revelation from God?
What are you talking about? With these ideas you will never come to truth.

You want to invent a God who does what you think he should do, rather than what the God of scripture does.

 

[Luke2427]

You want to invent a God who does what you think he should do, rather than what the God of scripture does.

BINGO!!

That's the PRIMARY reason this new nameless theology with no historical roots which has never been espoused by any theologian before a century ago exists.

You nailed the issue right on the head.

 

[StefanM]

God is doing NO choosing regarding this.

WE are the ones who choose...

Election means choice. We do not elect ourselves.

 

[convicted1]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Almost, but no cigar. Christ died for "our" sins is not the same as Christ died for "your" sins.




Ah, but a distinction nonetheless. My request was for scripture which says "Jesus died for you," or "Jesus died for your sins."

Since there is widespread use of those expressions, surely we can find an example in scripture where somebody says it.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

This verse right here states that Jesus died for me. I was about as "ungodly" as one could get. But by His Grace, by His Love, by His Mercy, and by His Blood, He saved a wretched man such as I and placed me on the "Highway of Holiness"!! Praise His sweet name!! I know it doesn't come out and state directly that He died for me, but in MANY WAYS it does!! :thumbs::thumbs::jesus:
i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

So we become regenerated because we possess salvation? That is not Biblical Regeneration is new life. Salvation is the benefit of that new life. Salvation is not the cause of new life. If it is, can you show me the Scripture to support that idea?

Greek word used for "regeneration": paliggenesia G3824

Thayer's definition:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge

c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

e) other uses

1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection


Now the Greek word used for "salvation": sōtērios G4992

Thayer's definition:
1) saving, bringing salvation

2) he who embodies this salvation, or through whom God is about to achieve it

3) the hope of (future) salvation


Anutter word used for "salvation": sōtēria G4991

Thayer's definition:
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies

b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation

1) of Messianic salvation

2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

So, in essence, these two words are synomous and/or interchangeable in their applications to scripture. One can not be regenerated without possessing salvation, and one can not possess salvation without being regenerated. I think they are two words with the same meaning, IMO.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Every human being ever born has the opportunity
where did you get this unbiblical idea from??? a specific revelation from God?
What are you talking about? With these ideas you will never come to truth.

You want to invent a God who does what you think he should do, rather than what the God of scripture does.

Ha ha! Thanks for the charitable response. :laugh:

Read John 1:6-9...

Verse 9:

"He (John) was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that light. That Light was the true Light, that gives light to every man (person) that comes into the world.

If you choose to believe that "every man" does not mean "every man", thats your buisiness. I believe God when He says this.

If you choose to believe that God let millions of people perish and wound up in hell because the missionaries...darn the luck...couldnt get to their tribe before they all died, that also your buisiness.

But I have confidence in Gods ability to get gospel Light..in His perfect way..to those had no word from any christian witnesses before they died.

Particularly when the scriptures inform us that Christ "gives "light" to every human being who has ever lived. (John 1:6-9)

Friend..you have an exceedingly small view of God. Do you deny all of the miracles as well? Do you deny the virgin birth? the bodily ressurection?

I believe ALL of those things, and all of the other miracles as well.
And when God tells me that Christ give "light" (supernatural revelation) to every human being who has ever lived...this conservative evangelical believes him.

Why dont you?

AiC

 

[The Archangel]

Greek word used for "regeneration": paliggenesia G3824

Thayer's definition:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge

c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

e) other uses

1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection


Now the Greek word used for "salvation": sōtērios G4992

Thayer's definition:
1) saving, bringing salvation

2) he who embodies this salvation, or through whom God is about to achieve it

3) the hope of (future) salvation


Anutter word used for "salvation": sōtēria G4991

Thayer's definition:
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies

b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation

1) of Messianic salvation

2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

So, in essence, these two words are synomous and/or interchangeable in their applications to scripture. One can not be regenerated without possessing salvation, and one can not possess salvation without being regenerated. I think they are two words with the same meaning, IMO.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

I wanted to point out that no resource I have suggests these two words are synonymous.

The usage in the New Testament is different, suggesting that they are not synonymous.

I think you're concept of what we, as Calvinists, claim as regeneration is not what we actually think. We do not think that regeneration is being saved. We think that regeneration inevitably leads to our being saved.

But, as far as the semantic range of each word, they are not synonyms.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

The usage in the New Testament is different, suggesting that they are not synonymous.

I think you're concept of what we, as Calvinists, claim as regeneration is not what we actually think. We do not think that regeneration is being saved. We think that regeneration inevitably leads to our being saved.

But, as far as the semantic range of each word, they are not synonyms.

The Archangel[/QUOTE]

I wanted to point out that no resource I have suggests these two words are synonymous.

Maybe interchangeable would be better, I guess. Look at the defintion words used by Thayer(I am not saying that this is the best source, but it's the best I have to use :tongue3:!!!!) The words used in regards to regeneration: new birth, renewal, the production of a NEW LIFE consecrated to God, the renovation of the earth after the deluge, etc. All of these point to one thing, salvation(new life unto God).

The words used in the definition of salvation: saving, bringing salvation, salvation as the present possession of all true christians, etc.
Regeneration and salvation boil down to one true meaning, new life unto God.You can not have salvation without regeneration, and you can not have regenration without salvation. One does not cause the other.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Allan]

I wanted to point out that no resource I have suggests these two words are synonymous.

The usage in the New Testament is different, suggesting that they are not synonymous.

I think you're concept of what we, as Calvinists, claim as regeneration is not what we actually think. We do not think that regeneration is being saved. We think that regeneration inevitably leads to our being saved.

But, as far as the semantic range of each word, they are not synonyms.

The Archangel

While they are not specifically synonymous, as in one word meaning the same as the other, they are conceptually synonymous. Scripture does not separate one from the other conceptually. You can not be saved and not be regenerate but nor can one be regenerate and not be saved.

While 'salvation' speaks in a general (all encompassing) sense to all the aspects that have happened to place one in a right standing before God (status); 'regeneration' speaks specifically of certain things that are done to make that person BE right before God (action). However BOTH speak to the same conceptual idea. What is unique here is that BOTH groups agree that regeneration is not only an act of God upon man but ALSO that 'regeneration' is 'being made alive'.

As you and I agreed previously, the key bridge that divides our groups is just what Regeneration is but more specifically what it DOES and HOW.

Therefore, to discern how to divine the theological matter of regeneration - 2 questions must be asked in order to answer this:
.....1. What it does?
.....2. How it does this?

One final question that should be asked is how is a person saved and since Cals' and nons agree (by grace through faith) we well leave this one be for now, yet this answer will evaluate the end results.

 

[Allan]

Regeneration IS synonymous with other phrases in scripture:
born again/born from above/new birth; new creation; made alive/quickened

Let us speak of these first:
JI Packer states of the New Birth:
The use of the figure of new birth to describe this change ... The regenerate man has forever ceased to be the man he was; his old life is over and a new life has begun; he is a new creature in Christ, buried with him out of reach of condemnation and raised with him into a new life of righteousness..

Packers phrasing here is entirely applicable since being born means you are born into a family. Your birth establishes you are now apart of and in the family and thus have innately within you, aspects of your family, specifically in this case, your Father.

Now in order to be apart of God's family two things just transpire.
1. you must be born again, cause you do not have your Fathers nature
2. for #1 to be come to pass you must be made new; a new creation

Scripture declares that we (believers) are a new creation/creature, old things have passed away (no longer there) behold all things have been made again, new (without stain or taint). However, there is a modifier here.. 'in Christ'. You can not be a new creation without being in Christ Jesus. but we will come back to this and for now just assume it doesn't say "in Christ".

So.. in order to be in God's family, thus able to call him Father, we must have within us a new nature. In order to have a new nature the old nature must be removed and a new one placed within us that corresponds to the Fathers and therefore placing us IN Him. Ergo - set apart from the other or sanctified

Thus, according to scripture, in order to have no stain or taint (regarding sin) before God, we must be justified before Him. If we are not justified before him, we are still tainted and stained and not a new creature. If we are not a new creature (having a new nature) then we have no access to the family of God, therefore we have never been born again.

Another interesting point about being born again or the new birth is that it does indeed speak to the fact that spiritually, they are made alive. But unless you have been born or birthed into the family of God, you are not alive unto Him. Scripture tells us that 'life' or spiritual life ONLY comes through those who are IN Christ Jesus. They are 'in' and therefore one or in union with Him. Rom 6:11 states we are alive unto God through Jesus Christ; 1 Cor 15:22 states that "even so IN CHRIST shall all be MADE alive; Eph 2:5 quickened/made alive us WITH Christ (we are alive because He is alive - He in us and us in Him, who is life) You can not have life apart from Christ Jesus.

YET, one can not be unified in/with Christ, while still in sin, still tainted and stained. He who is thrice holy, will not unite Himself into one being with those who have not been cleansed.

Thus to be born again, into the family of God (sanctification) you must become a new creature (justification).. that you might be IN Christ and thus of the family of God. We find in Titus 3:5 this same compelling statement regarding regeneration.. that it is the work of justification and sanctification.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

NLT states it this way:

He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit.*

Thus salvation and regeneration as seen in this passage as being conceptually synonymous.. we are saved through the work of regeneration.. and regeneration establishes why we are saved.

And in understanding salvation, we note that you can not be saved apart from being justified and sanctified. And you are not a child of God until you are saved, being placed into Christ and making you apart of family of God, whereby God Himself comes to indwell and become unified with the believer. Eternal life is knowing God the Father, and His Son, whom He sent. What is also intriguing is that all of these things happen at salvation, but none of them transpire prior to exercising faith. And therefore I believe, according to scripture, you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (or in union with God) (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

 

[revmwc]

BINGO!!

That's the PRIMARY reason this new nameless theology with no historical roots which has never been espoused by any theologian before a century ago exists.

You nailed the issue right on the head.

Which one is that? The limited atonement crowd who believe Christ onl;y died for a few when scripture is very clear atonement is unlimited. Or the one that is teaching we don't have a sin nature in us which again Paul was very clear we do. Exactly which one are you referencing?

If you believe in limited atonement explain where you see it in these verses, and I'll bold the part that needs to be answered as to how they show limited atonement. I see unlimited in them.

So Christ according to all these verses, When Christ was judged on the cross for sins, He paid for the sins of the entire human race -- not just for the elect.

Romans 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11These things command and teach.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Take the whole text of course but for reference show from each of these how atonement is limited.

The teaching from the 1 st century church was Atonement was unlimited, no we have folks twisting scripture to show it to be limited.

 

[revmwc]

Election means choice. We do not elect ourselves.

Define the elect,
1. those who God foreknew would choose for God,
2. those who chose for God
3. did God pick and chose by lot those who would or would not be saved?

Those are the choices we have so which one do you see and give scriptural reference.

 

[HankD]

Define the elect,
1. those who God foreknew would choose for God,
2. those who chose for God
3. did God pick and chose by lot those who would or would not be saved?

Those are the choices we have so which one do you see and give scriptural reference.

In my case, none of the above, it was a meeting of the minds:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

HankD​

 

[revmwc]

In my case, none of the above, it was a meeting of the minds:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

HankD​

I'd say God knew the choice you would make and predestinated you to be a child of God. A stubborn one to get you there but never the less a child of God. I think we all have a little stubborn streak in us though. LOL

 

[HankD]

I'd say God knew the choice you would make and predestinated you to be a child of God. A stubborn one to get you there but never the less a child of God. I think we all have a little stubborn streak in us though. LOL

You may very well be right or perhaps the other popular view is correct.

But you did ask what I see (or saw).

I don't know or can't remember what happened at the election of His children (from the foundation of the world).

What I saw in this life was someone like Adam, running away from God in fear until He quieted my fears with Christs' words and the following "reasonings":

Matthew 11

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
​

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.​

30 I and my Father are one.

HankD

 

[revmwc]

You may very well be right or perhaps the other popular view is correct.

But you did ask what I see (or saw).

I don't know or can't remember what happened at the election of His children (from the foundation of the world).

What I saw in this life was someone like Adam, running away from God in fear until He quieted my fears with Christs' words and the following "reasonings":

Matthew 11

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
​

John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.​

30 I and my Father are one.

HankD

We all come to Christ under different circumstances, but in the same way by Faith.

 

[HankD]

We all come to Christ under different circumstances, but in the same way by Faith.

Amen.

I once read of a kind of "chant" (among others) sung back and forth in the fields by American slaves, it goes something like this:

Don't know why Jesus saved me - Answer: But I'm glad He did.

Don't know why Jesus loves me - Answer: But I'm glad He does.

Don't know why Jesus gonna come for me - Answer: But I'm glad He will.

No calvinism, no arminianism, just faith.

HankD