Where does faith come from? Do we within ourselves have the ability to have it simply by our own volition---or must we first be enabled by something else that moves upon us & affirms within us the truth we put our trust in?
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Single BIGGEST Biblical Reason Why You Do/Do not believe In TULIP!
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Where does faith come from? Do we within ourselves have the ability to have it simply by our own volition---or must we first be enabled by something else that moves upon us & affirms within us the truth we put our trust in?
Well let's look at Faith, do you believe that when you push a light switch it will turn on the light, or that if you turn the key on your car that it will crank the car, that's faith. We have faith in many things, it is built in to us, faith in Christ cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We put faith in what we have heard about Christ, some reject it because they refuse to accept the gospel story doesn't change the fact that the gospel is true. By our volition we choose to accept Christ, God built it into mankind it is a part of us. The Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin and the truth but the indiividual must accept or resist the conviction of the Spirit therefore the divine institution of volition is key to our faith.
He is asking, not if you have the ability to have faith/believe, but if you can believe separate from the work of the Spirit of God.
IOW - can a person believe in Christ apart from any divine aid?
My answer - No
convicted1
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I know that this wasn't directed to me, but I wanna play too. I believe that faith comes from God, but just because He gives it to us, that alone doesn't guarantee they we put it to good use.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
When the Grace of God which bringeth salvation(that's Jesus plain as day!!) appears to us, there is no guarantee they will heed what He says. He worked with me for years, but I pushed Him away so many times, I shamefully admit. If I would have died lost, the blame would fall completely on me for not choosing to believe.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
I think I answered that in my post but maybe it wasn't clear.
convicted1
Guest
I agree with you to a certain extent, Brother. Yes, "faith" is in us, meaning we can put faith into worldly things. But true saving faith, comes directly from God, IMHO.
I guess you guys missed this part of my answer, "faith in Christ cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"
Mining scriptural references probably won't help much in this case because we are unavoidably going to draw different conclusions from the verses.
My point, however, is that election requires a choice, by definition.
See Romans 9:11-12:
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
This is indicating God's purpose in election toward Jacob--it is God's choice, not Jacob's or Esau's. I'm not trying to make a theological point with this verse to support unconditional election to salvation; I'm merely pointing out that the term election refers to God's choice.
Also, in the context of choosing (electing) the disciples....
[16] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
(John 15:16 ESV)
And...
[18] But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
(1 Corinthians 12:18 ESV)
And...
[4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [5] he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
(Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV)
And...
[13] But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV)
When you see these references to "choice," keep in mind that "elect" and "chosen" essentially mean the same thing. The verbs used for "choice" are essentially the verb equivalent forms of the nouns for "elect" and "election."
We can differ on the mechanics of how God chooses, but to deny that God elects (or chooses) in some way is to deny Scriptural teaching.
convicted1
Guest
I agree with this. However, unless God opens their eyes to see, unplugs their ears to hear, they can not truly garner the meaning of what the preacher is really saying. Look, I am a believer in FW, but God must enlighten us to understand...that is what I am getting at.
I placed comments in the quote above with an revmwc reference please don't miss them.
God chooses because of His Foreknowledge and that foreknowledge is based on His Omniscience. Hebrews 4: 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
If Christ, the word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart today and He is the same today as He was in times past then in Eternity Past God knew the thoughts and intents of our heart, that is Foreknowledge.
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Wow—the one day I really don’t have time to be on the BB I’m getting some of the best discussions. Alan nailed it & I agree with his answer 100%, rev & conv both have truly well thought out answers & I really wish I had time to reply—keep up the good studies all of you—God Bless!
convicted1
Guest
Jacob and Esau are also and allegory of the "outer man"(Esau), and the "inner man"(Jacob). The outer man can not please God, but the inner man can. God chose to save the inner man at the point salvation/regeneration takes place. The outer man will not be saved until Jesus comes, and it(outer man) will then get a most glorious body likened unto Jesus' body.
Jesus was talking to His Disciples here. Jesus chose the twelve to do the miracles He did, to further the gospel. Even Judas was given the same gifts the others had, IMHO. We do not have the gifts He chose to give them. He gave them power to heal the lame, give sight to the blind, cause the deaf to hear. Have any of us restored the blind, deaf, lame, in the manner they(disciples) did?
I believe this is talking about the gifts He gives us. We all have different gifts. Some can sing, some can preach, some can sing AND preach, so can teach, etc.
Two key words here; IN HIM. We were chose in Christ, not apart from Christ, before the foundation of the world. I believe this is talking about the gentile people being grafted in, and not individual election.
Brother, you need to back up a few verses and take a look at what is really being stated:
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Apparently God foresaw that they would not receive the truth(doesn't say they weren't presented the truth, but they wouldn't receive the truth), and for this cause of not receiving it, God would send them strong delsuions and that they would believe a lie, and might be damned(not would be damned). God's foreknowledge apparently comes into the equation here.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
I said God chose, He chose because of foeknowledge.
I can recognize that position, even though I disagree with it.
You are assuming here though that an unregenerated person can come to accepting/believing faith in Christ...
Have to be "quickened" by God before hearing Gospel, and God grants faith also to believe via His Holy Spirit even at that point...
convicted1
Guest
I think the major problem in our differences is how each side defines regeneration. Regeneration means new birth. New birth means new life. New life means born again. Born again means salvation. Faith comes before salvation, so an unregenerated person must be given faith by God to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them which diligently seek Him(Heb. 11:6)
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Faith in Christ is salvation, regeneration is the birth of the Human Spirit which was dead die to sin. Man is born Spiritually dead. Since one places faith in Christ at that instant salvation, justification, imputation, regeneration occur immediately. There are more things that go with this but this off the top of my head. It is at the twinkling of an eye, all occur instantly. So faith brings all this to the believer.
Ephesians 2: 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Quickened made alive, regenerated we were Spiritually dead so you are saying prior to "accepting/believing faith in Christ" by the inregenrate person they have to be made alive? Spiritual life comes when faith is placed in Christ and the Holy spirit comes and indwells the believer making them Spiritually alive. So the unregenerate person has to place faith in Christ before they can be quickened.
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