Tom Butler
New Member
Can somebody come up with a scripture verse where anybody told an audience or an individual "Jesus died for you?"
I'm not looking for anything but "died for YOU."
I'm not looking for anything but "died for YOU."
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Single BIGGEST Biblical Reason Why You Do/Do not believe In TULIP!
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You trust your interpretation just as much. My point in providing these statements was to refute your baseless assertions that Calvinists do not derive their beliefs from Scripture. Could the interpretations be wrong? Sure, but you shouldn't concoct strawmen for the sake of your specious arguments.
I, like other Calvinists, believe that the Scriptures DO teach these doctrines "in context," as you mention. I wouldn't believe it otherwise. If I didn't have to worry about Scripture, I'd just be a universalist. Warm fuzzies are much easier to espouse in a secular society.
In the amplified Bible the term "died for you" is used but it is David saying he wished he had died for Absalom.
2 Samuel 18:33
You can believe in almost anything you want to but that doesn't make it so. What does is scripture in context. I do not interpret scripture I take it literally. I read it from beginning to end and believe it the same way. You on the other hand interpret it to mean something it isn't saying at all and then claim you interpretation is scriptural based entirely on a verse here and there with nothing in context. You are only fooling your self with the thoughts of men.
You know there is one verse in the Bible that says there is no God but, until you read it in context, you can be misled about it's meaning
MB
Not the exact quote you desire, but 2 Peter 2:1
Almost....
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
Limited Atonement
1. God died for the church/sheep/elect/believers Eph 5:25, John 10:11, 15
2. The death of Christ is sufficient for the world. 1 Tim 4:10
3. The Bible is clear that salvation is for those that believe, never those that don't believe. I don't see any place in Scripture of Salvation outside of believing. John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9, Acts 16:31, Romans 3:22, 28, 4:5
1. God died for the church/sheep/elect/believers Eph 5:25, John 10:11, 15
2. The death of Christ is sufficient for the world. 1 Tim 4:10
3. The Bible is clear that salvation is for those that believe, never those that don't believe. I don't see any place in Scripture of Salvation outside of believing. John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9, Acts 16:31, Romans 3:22, 28, 4:5
There are many scriptures as have been posted that tell us Christ died for all mankind. That is unlimited atonement. Answer each of the ones I've posted with how they show limited.
Here you go in case you missed them.
So Christ according to all these verses, When Christ was judged on the cross for sins, He paid for the sins of the entire human race -- not just for the elect.
Romans 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11These things command and teach.
Titus 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I bolded the parts that need to be explained as to how they limit the atonement of Christ.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Almost, but no cigar. Christ died for "our" sins is not the same as Christ died for "your" sins.
webdog said:
"....denying the Lord who bought them..."
Still looking for an exact quote.
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A distinction without a difference. This from the reformed camp that maintain "whosoever believes" in John 3:16 means "eveyone who believes" and "the whole world" actually means "many races." Irony noted.
I believe the TULI of the Tulip are false doctrines, but I believe once a person is saved, they are saved forever.
There is always a lot of theories about what is the root error of Calvinism with many suggesting Total Spiritual Inability. But I believe the problem lies beneath all four doctrines.
Calvin did not understand why some people respond to the gospel but others reject it. He did not understand or agree with the reasons given in scripture, so he invented a working hypothesis, that God had decided beforehand who could respond and who couldn't. And so with this theory, he set about to find evidence whether this view was correct or not. And he found lots of verses that could, with a little assumption thrown in, support the hypothesis.
How were we preselected? Why Ephesians 1:4 will work if we say God chose us [individually] in Him before the foundation of the world.
But how can we be chosen before God created us? God knows all things, so that could included the future, so He could have chosen us before He created us. All we have to assume is that knowing all things refers to all things imaginable, rather than what the context suggests. Never mind this is simply pagan metaphysics, it solves the problem.
Ok, but how to prevent those not chosen from trusting in Christ. Yes, we can invent Total Spiritual inability, no one can come to Jesus unless God grants it to him by removing his or her total inability.
Naturally, irresistible grace can supernaturally alter those chosen so they and they alone can respond. Lets call this the effacious call. Now we are cooking.
But if God had chosen before creation only to save those He chose, they it is not logical for Christ to die for all men. What we need here is to change the meaning of words so all men becomes all kinds of men, and the whole world means the chosen among the whole world. Thin, but maybe not too many will notice.
Now why did God choose some and not others? Well, not because He credited their faith, that would detract from God's sovereignty. Lets leave it a secret, and just say trust us, God had a purpose and He chose not to reveal it. Again, kind of thin, but if we repeat it enough, only the Bereans will object.
There is always a lot of theories about what is the root error of Calvinism with many suggesting Total Spiritual Inability. But I believe the problem lies beneath all four doctrines.
Calvin did not understand why some people respond to the gospel but others reject it. He did not understand or agree with the reasons given in scripture, so he invented a working hypothesis, that God had decided beforehand who could respond and who couldn't. And so with this theory, he set about to find evidence whether this view was correct or not. And he found lots of verses that could, with a little assumption thrown in, support the hypothesis.
How were we preselected? Why Ephesians 1:4 will work if we say God chose us [individually] in Him before the foundation of the world.
But how can we be chosen before God created us? God knows all things, so that could included the future, so He could have chosen us before He created us. All we have to assume is that knowing all things refers to all things imaginable, rather than what the context suggests. Never mind this is simply pagan metaphysics, it solves the problem.
Ok, but how to prevent those not chosen from trusting in Christ. Yes, we can invent Total Spiritual inability, no one can come to Jesus unless God grants it to him by removing his or her total inability.
Naturally, irresistible grace can supernaturally alter those chosen so they and they alone can respond. Lets call this the effacious call. Now we are cooking.
But if God had chosen before creation only to save those He chose, they it is not logical for Christ to die for all men. What we need here is to change the meaning of words so all men becomes all kinds of men, and the whole world means the chosen among the whole world. Thin, but maybe not too many will notice.
Now why did God choose some and not others? Well, not because He credited their faith, that would detract from God's sovereignty. Lets leave it a secret, and just say trust us, God had a purpose and He chose not to reveal it. Again, kind of thin, but if we repeat it enough, only the Bereans will object.
If you trully believe this then how can you believe you are first regenerated inorder to understand the scriptures, because Regeneration is Salvation. You're contradicting Calvinism welcome to the non Calvinist side.
MB
If that is your belief, yes.
I just cannot stand the idea of either side claiming that the other is forming their theology apart from Scripture. BOTH sides strive to have a biblical understanding of theology. The problem is that we are not infallible, so our understandings can be incorrect.
I can believe that Scripture means one thing while you believe it means another. Either of us or both of us could be wrong. I don't have to contend that you are creating the theology out of your personal preferences.
I sincerely believe that non-Calvinists (as represented here, not liberal theologians) hold to their position because they believe the Scriptures to teach it. I believe the same of Calvinists here.
For all the debate, it is important to remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
Look it up if it isn't. I'd like to know what is since once regenerated means always regenerated.
Don't tell me this is yet another word Calvinist disagree over whether or not it really means what it really means. Does it not mean to be renewed, remade. Doesn't it mean new spiritual life? You see this is exactly what Salvation really is being made new. born again, brought back to spiritual life.
Maybe you can tell me how one can be saved with out any knowledge of God that he/she understands first.
MB
LOL, You have me there. I don't agree with the Calvinist that regeneration precedes.(which is fine). I say that happen at the exact same moment. One moment, a person is an unbeliever, unregenerate.... the next moment, he's a believer, regenerate.
of course don't assume Calvinist don't believe that people should have faith/believe.
No, regenerate is a part of salvation. Just like justification, faith, repentance are all parts of salvation. The term regeneration and salvation are not synonymous.
Calvinist or not, anyone who believes that Christ died for our sins and rose again on the third day is saved. I wouldn't even think of arguing over what I too believe with all my heart. Certainly there are many Calvinist who are genuinely saved even though we disagree over the semantics.
MB
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