"Sinless Perfection" before God.

[Sai]

What a nice profession. Thank you for sharing.

But you didn’t reconcile the passages from 1 John.

peace to you

Please remind me of what we are questioning about that passage and I’ll respond. Thx


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[SGO]

Sounds like an excuse to sin.

Forgive my opening response to your post. I want you to know that I wasted decades of my born again life because I became addicted to fulfilling the list of the sin nature who is very much alive and is continually seeking opportunities to gain control of my will.

OK I can forgive you for not using your edit tab when you could have.

We are in the same club about being Christians, yet addicted to sin.

 

[Hobie]

Except, if you were truly “perfect” you would never say so because that reveals a prideful heart.

Boasting that you are “perfect” is a sin..... so you are no longer perfect.

peace to you

Amen.!

 

[Hobie]

The word “perfect” can have the same meaning as “complete”. It doesn’t mean “sinless”, since we have many verses that tell us we are not sinless.

peace to you

True, everyone has sinned except Christ, but what we are looking at is coming to a level of a sinless life, or we might say righteousness, that God is pleased, much like Job..

Job 2:3
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

 

[AustinC]

True, everyone has sinned except Christ, but what we are looking at is coming to a level of a sinless life, or we might say righteousness, that God is pleased, much like Job..

Job 2:3
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God is only pleased with Christ. No other is righteous. Indeed, all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
When we are judged, our only hope is in Christ alone.
God would not tell us to confess sins so that he will freely forgive us our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) if we could reach sinless perfection.
The entire concept of sinless perfection is a lie from legalists who deny the grace of God in exchange for their own efforts.

 

[AustinC]

True, everyone has sinned except Christ, but what we are looking at is coming to a level of a sinless life, or we might say righteousness, that God is pleased, much like Job..

Job 2:3
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Let's look at Jobs response in Job 42:1-6.

Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

Does that strike you as a sinlessly perfect man?

Not at all. Job knew he was wicked and in need of God's forgiveness and grace. Job, like David, needed this:

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
~ 2 Samuel 12:13

God must choose to put away our sins. He is the only one who has authority to do so. He must choose to make us holy. He does so through Christ Jesus atonement for our sins.

 

[Southern Fried Baptist]

Thank God that Jesus was perfect. Cause Im a stinker amongst the most stinky!!!

 

[Sai]

Thank God that Jesus was perfect. Cause Im a stinker amongst the most stinky!!!

Here. A more humble rendering to make your point friend

“Then Job answered Jehovah, and said, I know that thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of thine can be restrained. Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, Things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee: Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭42:1-6‬ ‭ASV‬‬


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[Hobie]

God is only pleased with Christ. No other is righteous. Indeed, all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
When we are judged, our only hope is in Christ alone.
God would not tell us to confess sins so that he will freely forgive us our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) if we could reach sinless perfection.
The entire concept of sinless perfection is a lie from legalists who deny the grace of God in exchange for their own efforts.

How would you read this verse..

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

[AustinC]

How would you read this verse..

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:5-6 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Faith pleases God. God is the author and finisher of faith. God is pleased with Jesus.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags.

 

[Hobie]

So the person having the faith means nothing then, only the word?
I don't think that is what is meant, it is the righteousness of Christ that we put on and have within us that allows us to gain a victory over sin and have redemption. Faith within the person pleases God, and it is the power of the Holy Ghost manifested as it does its work of transformation.

1 John 4:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Acts 11:24
For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

 

[AustinC]

So the person having the faith means nothing then, only the word?
I don't think that is what is meant, it is the righteousness of Christ that we put on and have within us that allows us to gain a victory over sin and have redemption. Faith within the person pleases God, and it is the power of the Holy Ghost manifested as it does its work of transformation.

1 John 4:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Acts 11:24
For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

God is righteous. God places us in Christ. God gives us faith. God accomplishes his work in us.
Do you see who gets the credit?

 

[Hobie]

God is righteous. God places us in Christ. God gives us faith. God accomplishes his work in us.
Do you see who gets the credit?

Yes, and see who puts on the robe of righteousness. God gets the credit and we get salvation, but we have to turn to Christ and put on the robe of righteousness and the sanctification by faith it entails. Sinners who refuse, are like the man who came to the wedding feast with his own robe, denying the one the King provided. We cannot think to be that presumptuous...

 

[AustinC]

Yes, and see who puts on the robe of righteousness. God gets the credit and we get salvation, but we have to turn to Christ and put on the robe of righteousness and the sanctification by faith it entails. Sinners who refuse, are like the man who came to the wedding feast with his own robe, denying the one the King provided. We cannot think to be that presumptuous...

God causes us to turn.
God puts on the robe of righteousness.
If we don't repent, it shows we were illegitimate children or we are prodigal sons.

God does the sanctifying work in us. God authors and finishes our faith. God ordains the good work for us to do.

 

[Hobie]

God causes us to turn.
God puts on the robe of righteousness.
If we don't repent, it shows we were illegitimate children or we are prodigal sons.

God does the sanctifying work in us. God authors and finishes our faith. God ordains the good work for us to do.

But we have to have faith, that is clear from the Bible, and it is through this that we turn to Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[AustinC]

But we have to have faith, that is clear from the Bible, and it is through this that we turn to Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight

Faith is a gift given to those whom God makes alive with Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Hobie]

Let's look at Jobs response in Job 42:1-6.

Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

Does that strike you as a sinlessly perfect man?

Not at all. Job knew he was wicked and in need of God's forgiveness and grace. Job, like David, needed this:

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
~ 2 Samuel 12:13

God must choose to put away our sins. He is the only one who has authority to do so. He must choose to make us holy. He does so through Christ Jesus atonement for our sins.

That is exactly what happens but then what, we go back to the slavery of sin. Of course not, Christ said go and sin no more, not go back to the cesspool of sin and put yourself back in it. Through the Holy Spirit we are changed and began to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, not the bondage of sin.

 

[AustinC]

That is exactly what happens but then what, we go back to the slavery of sin. Of course not, Christ said go and sin no more, not go back to the cesspool of sin and put yourself back in it. Through the Holy Spirit we are changed and began to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, not the bondage of sin.

What you state is not sinless perfection. If it were, God would not have said, "If you confess your sins, God is faithful and just to forgive you your sins." ~ 1 John 1:9

 

[Hobie]

Thou canst not see my face:
for there shall no man see me and live.
Exodus 33:20


... it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that,
when he shall appear,
we shall be like him;
for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:2


...but we shall all be changed,
In a moment in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:51b-:53



I am not perfect now:



If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9



I will be perfect, and only by an act of God.



For he hath made him
to be sin for us,

who knew no sin;

that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

Notice though "cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So are we cleansed of a little bit or all?

 

[mailmandan]

Let's look at Jobs response in Job 42:1-6.

Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

Does that strike you as a sinlessly perfect man?

Amen! Perfect and upright does not imply that Job was sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time. The word "perfect" which in Hebrew is "tam" does not necessarily imply absolute sinlessness. It signifies, rather, completeness, integrity, sincerity, but in a relative sense. The Hebrew term tam is equivalent to the Greek teleios, which is often translated perfect in the NT but which is better translated "full grown" or "mature." Job had admitted his sinfulness and did not claim to be sinless. (Job 7:21; 13:26)