So asking my ? again.

[Rebel]

The words "from the beginning" refers to when time began. It means from the commencement of humanity, when Adam was created.

So you don't think Satan existed before Adam?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Word means moral and or ethical evil also!

Brother Rippon,

I agree with BrotherSavedbyMercy that the word for evil in Isaiah 45:7 is often translated as the word "evil" or "wicked" throughout the Bible. Isaiah 45:7 states, "7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" The word evil in Hebrew is the word "ra" and it is translated as the word evil in Genesis 6:5 which says, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". No scholar would contend the word evil here with the same Hebrew word does not mean moral evil, but rather calamity. Also, this is seen again with the same Hebrew word in Genesis 8:21, "for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" Here again no scholar would interpret the verse to mean calamity, otherwise the verse doesn't even make sense. One final example in Genesis 38:7 the same Hebrew word is translated as the word "wicked, "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." Here again the word wicked is the proper rendering for this verse as it is why the Lord "slew him". If you care to study how this word is rendered throughout the Old Testament please see this link http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_7451.htm

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Then again how are you going to harmonize these scriptures with this one?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.... Brother Glen

BrotherTyndale,

This passage you gave above is also a good one to illustrate the fact that Satan was created evil. Notice it says says, "28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Now if I find a quarter on the road, was it not already there, but was not manifested until it was found, in the same way Satan's iniquity was "found" meaning it was already there and then became manifest.

 

[DHK]

BrotherTyndale,

This passage you gave above is also a good one to illustrate the fact that Satan was created evil. Notice it says says, "28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Now if I find a quarter on the road, was it not already there, but was not manifested until it was found, in the same way Satan's iniquity was "found" meaning it was already there.

That is not the intended meaning and you are wrong in your conclusion.
Esteemed Hebrew scholars Keil and Delitzsch have this to say about the verse:

Eze_28:15. Thou wast innocent in thy ways from the day on which thou wast created, until iniquity was found in thee.

1. He was created perfect (as God creates all things).
2. The word is "until" meaning there was a point in time when Lucifer lifted up his heart in rebellion against God. This he did of his own will.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

That does not say or prove that he was created evil. It supports that he chose evil. .

Brother Rebel,

The Greek word translated "beginning" that states the devil was a "murder from the beginning" in John 8:44 is the word Greek arché and according to Help word studies it means, " i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")." The same Greek word translated beginning is also used in reference to the devil in 1 John 3:8, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning", thus the inescapable logical conclusion to any unbiased reader must be that he was created evil. If he wasn't created evil and thus had no inclination or desire to do evil, then how could he possible end up choosing evil if it was not in his nature? Jesus tells us , "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit" (Matthew 7:18), thus if Satan was created good it would have been impossible for him to "bring forth evil" per the principle Christ laid down.

I hope Calvinists realize that to say God created evil is to say that God is the author of evil. This is a very serious matter. The god of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible. I hate to put it so bluntly, but this is crucial.

Brother Rebel,

Your premise is wrong. God is not the author of evil by necessity if Satan was created evil by Him and the reason is because what makes an act evil is the intent behind it. I will fall back on my physician argument I use quite often. If a physician amputates the leg of a person to save him, doing so does not make him evil, however if he amputates a persons leg to cause him harm out of malice this would be evil. In like manner, the reason Satan was created evil by God was so he could create a people to redeem, thus manifesting his attributes of His nature of forgiveness, mercy, grace, redemption, justification, and the greatest act of love in history via the sacrifice of His son. None of these things could have ever been manifested in history if sin did not come into existence or if the fall had never occurred, therefore God had a good motive to create Satan evil, thus he did not sin in doing so. Does this make sense to you?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[DHK]

"The beginning" "en arche" is always in reference to the earth, to time in reference to mankind, for time was created for mankind. It is never in reference to those things which happen outside of the earth, that is in the realm of timelessness or eternity.

 

[Rebel]

That is not the intended meaning and you are wrong in your conclusion.
Esteemed Hebrew scholars Keil and Delitzsch have this to say about the verse:

1. He was created perfect (as God creates all things).
2. The word is "until" meaning there was a point in time when Lucifer lifted up his heart in rebellion against God. This he did of his own will.

Simple, isn't it, when one desires to ascertain the true meaning, without preconceived notions.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

That is not the intended meaning and you are wrong in your conclusion.
Esteemed Hebrew scholars Keil and Delitzsch have this to say about the verse:

1. He was created perfect (as God creates all things).
2. The word is "until" meaning there was a point in time when Lucifer lifted up his heart in rebellion against God. This he did of his own will.

Brother DHK,

This is the verse we are debating, "15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" According to the NAS Exhaustive Concordance the word "perfect" in this verse is the Hebrew word "tamim" and means "complete". You can verify this here http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”.

I offer the following two verses,
" Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

Thus, when we take the two verses above and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner.

If Satan was not created evil, that means he had no evil inclinations or desires, thus how would he then choose evil?

2. The word is "until" meaning there was a point in time when Lucifer lifted up his heart in rebellion against God. This he did of his own will.

Brother DHK, the verse says, "until iniquity was found in thee", again, I reiterate if something is "found" somewhere, it was already there. If you go for a walk and find money, wasn't the money already there on the street. In like manner Satan had iniquity in him from the beginning and it was then found in him.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Rebel]

Brother Rebel,

The Greek word translated "beginning" that states the devil was a "murder from the beginning" in John 8:44 is the word arché and according to Help word studies it means, " i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")." The same Greek word translated beginning is also used in reference to the devil in 1 John 3:8, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning", thus the inescapable logical conclusion to any unbiased reader must be that he was created evil. If he wasn't created evil and thus had no inclination or desire to do evil, then how could he possible end up choosing evil if it was not in his nature? Jesus tells us , "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit" (Matthew 7:18), thus if Satan was created good it would have been impossible for him to "bring forth evil" per the principle Christ laid down.



Brother Rebel,

Your premise is wrong. God is not the author of evil by necessity if Satan was created evil by Him and the reason is because what makes an act evil is the intent behind it. I will fall back on my physician argument I use quite often. If a physician amputates the leg of a person to save him, doing so does not make him evil, however if he amputates a persons leg to cause him harm out of malice this would be evil. In like manner, the reason Satan was created evil by God was so he could create a people to redeem, thus manifesting his attributes of His nature of forgiveness, mercy, grace, redemption, justification, and the greatest act of love in history via the sacrifice of His son. None of these things could have ever been manifested in history if sin did not come into existence or if the fall had never occurred, therefore God had a good motive to create Satan evil, thus he did not sin in doing so. Does this make sense to you?

God bless,

Brother Joe

No, it makes no sense. It is akin to the Mormon teaching that Adam sinned so that we might be. What you have put forth distorts God's character and is perverse.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

"The beginning" "en arche" is always in reference to the earth, to time in reference to mankind, for time was created for mankind. It is never in reference to those things which happen outside of the earth, that is in the realm of timelessness or eternity.

Brother DHK,

If I understand your statement above (please correct me if I am wrong),you believe the verses that say the devil, "was a murder from the beginning" and the devil "sinneth from the beginning" did not occur until after the world was created? If this is what you believe, what scripture do you have to support this assertion?

 

[Rebel]

Brother Rebel,

The Greek word translated "beginning" that states the devil was a "murder from the beginning" in John 8:44 is the word Greek arché and according to Help word studies it means, " i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")." The same Greek word translated beginning is also used in reference to the devil in 1 John 3:8, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning", thus the inescapable logical conclusion to any unbiased reader must be that he was created evil. If he wasn't created evil and thus had no inclination or desire to do evil, then how could he possible end up choosing evil if it was not in his nature? Jesus tells us , "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit" (Matthew 7:18), thus if Satan was created good it would have been impossible for him to "bring forth evil" per the principle Christ laid down.



Brother Rebel,

Your premise is wrong. God is not the author of evil by necessity if Satan was created evil by Him and the reason is because what makes an act evil is the intent behind it. I will fall back on my physician argument I use quite often. If a physician amputates the leg of a person to save him, doing so does not make him evil, however if he amputates a persons leg to cause him harm out of malice this would be evil. In like manner, the reason Satan was created evil by God was so he could create a people to redeem, thus manifesting his attributes of His nature of forgiveness, mercy, grace, redemption, justification, and the greatest act of love in history via the sacrifice of His son. None of these things could have ever been manifested in history if sin did not come into existence or if the fall had never occurred, therefore God had a good motive to create Satan evil, thus he did not sin in doing so. Does this make sense to you?

God bless,

Brother Joe

See bolded part of your first topic: The reason he could choose evil is the same reason Adam could choose evil: God gave Satan and Adam free will, the right of contrary choice. Such freedom is part of God's character, and He gave every spiritual being He ever created that freedom.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No, it makes no sense. It is akin to the Mormon teaching that Adam sinned so that we might be. What you have put forth distorts God's character and is perverse.

It is the truth. If God didn't will the fall why on earth was Satan put in the garden to begin with? Also, why did He create things the way he did, if he foreknew they wouldn't function according to His purpose after he created them and would cost Him the death of His son? Not even a human creator of a machine would make a machine knowingly that it wouldn't work properly and break down would they, thus how can you conclude God would operate in such a manner?

Finally, if it was God's will that Adam and Eve always remain in the garden, why did he say,"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Genesis 1:28) Now the word "replenish" means to fill up. From this it can be seen that instead of God intending them to remain in the garden, He meant for them to fill up and inhabit the entire earth. To this I will add the 29th verse, "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." (Genesis 1:29)? In the first place, we see from this, that man was intended to inhabit the entire earth, from the fact that the fruits that grow upon the face of the entire earth were to be meat, or food for him. And in the second place, we see that the fruit of every tree that bore seed was to be food for them for meat.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The above post#53 bears repeating. And note, when someone doesn't even identify as a Calvinist --it is dishonest for another to lump one into the Calvinist camp. Honesty is the best policy.

I agree on the doctrines of the five points of grace and the absolute predestination of all things Brother Rippon, but as I have stated on the forum before I am not a Calvinist, thus Brother Rebel shouldn't identify me as such and extrapolate my beliefs out to represent Calvinism.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

See bolded part of your first topic: The reason he could choose evil is the same reason Adam could choose evil: God gave Satan and Adam free will, the right of contrary choice. Such freedom is part of God's character, and He gave every spiritual being He ever created that freedom.

Brother Rebel,

I do not believe Adam and Eve were created evil, but nor do I believe they were created righteous. Adam was created innocent, but before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good or evil, he could have no knowledge of good and evil, thus his choice to eat the fruit was not a moral choice. The idea that Adam was, "able to stand, but liable to fall" is unscriptural. If Adam was "able to stand" without divine aid then he possessed more ability then God through Jesus Christ possessed. For did not God say of Christ, "11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways." (Psalm 91:11) and Matthew 4:6, " for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Do you suppose Adam possessed greater ability than Christ had? If not, and God thought it was necessary to uphold Jesus Christ and keep him in all his ways to prevent him from stumbling and falling, do you suppose "Adam was able to stand"? Such a thought is preposterous, and yet all who hold Adam was able to stand , teach this absurd and ridiculous idea. Jesus said in John 5:30, "I can of myself do nothing" yet men insist that Adam could of himself kept the law.

God knew he was going to fall, yet it pleased him to create him this way, this is why God said in reference to the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, " for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Notice he did not say if you eatest thereof it thou shalt surely die"

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

This is the verse we are debating, "15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" According to the NAS Exhaustive Concordance the word "perfect" in this verse is the Hebrew word "tamim" and means "complete". You can verify this here http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”.

I have been following the discussion a little.
It was Lucifer that was created "perfect" or complete. I agree that is a good translation.

I offer the following two verses,
" Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

The devil and Lucifer are not always synonymous. Lucifer, as in heaven, was what he was called when he was created. The devil and Satan is his more common name now. I am not saying he can't be called Lucifer but I do think there is a deliberate distinction.
The devil sins from the beginning--the beginning of his time on earth.
There is no time in heaven. Heaven exists outside the realm of time.
The devil sins from the beginning of time. Jesus wouldn't be speaking philosophically to the Jews. They would know that "beginning" would always refer to Creation, the only beginning that they knew of.

Thus, when we take the two verses above and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner.

If Satan was not created evil, that means he had no evil inclinations or desires, thus how would he then choose evil?

Verses from the OT prophet Ezekiel addressed to a pagan king called Tyrus,
verses quoted from Jesus spoken to rebellious Pharisees, "whose father is the devil." (spiritually).
verses quoted by John to Christians in one of his last writings that would close the canon of Scripture.
--These can hardly be tied together without taking them out of their respective contexts.

Brother DHK, the verse says, "until iniquity was found in thee", again, I reiterate if something is "found" somewhere, it was already there. If you go for a walk and find money, wasn't the money already there on the street. In like manner Satan had iniquity in him from the beginning and it was then found in him.

God bless,

Brother Joe

A poster called Winman (remember him) denied Total Depravity. He believed that a child is "innocent" until he sinned (maybe at six or seven years old).
That is the same sense the verse has here.
He is perfect until he sinned. Who knows how long that could have been?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I am a Calvinist, but I do not hold to the notion that Satan was created evil. Everything God has ever made, He made good. Adam, Eve and Satan were created good, and turned to sinning. Savedbymercy holds to many horrible views. He believes in eternal justification, Archangel Michael is Jesus(a JW teaching, by the way), serpent seed doctrine, and is anti-gospel regeneration. I shudder at the thoughts of him with bible in hand teaching people, especially little kids. :tear:

Brother Sovereign,

I too like BrotherSavedbymercy have come to believe in the doctrine of eternal justification after studying it further from the scripture. The great Baptist John Gill believed in it and I would hardly classify him as a heretic, would you? Here is an article he wrote on the matter http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index04.htm

Also, John Brine was also an English Particular Baptist minister from the 1700s, hardly a heretic, and he wrote an article on it that I would recommend you read if you ever have the time. It is backed by tons of scripture. Here it is \
http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index03.htm

Ephesians 1:3 clearly states, "our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (this occurred in heavenly places according to this verse, not on earth), therefore we are blessed with all spiritual blessing, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ. Is not justification a spiritual blessing?

B. There are two facts which compel one to look upon justification as an eternal act of God.

1. Had it not been for the fact that God looked upon his elect as being righteous and justified in Christ from eternity, he would have destroyed our race as soon as Adam sinned. God spares the wicked for the sake of the righteous. (Illustration: Lot and the men of Sodom.)

2. The Old Testament saints were justified by Christ, just as we are today. And their justification was just as full, complete, and perfect as ours (Heb. 9:15, 22; Rom. 3:25). Every true believer is eternally justified in the purpose of God."

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

[......................................

 

[BrotherJoseph]

QUOTE=DHK;2242035]The devil sins from the beginning--the beginning of his time on earth.
There is no time in heaven. Heaven exists outside the realm of time.
The devil sins from the beginning of time. Jesus wouldn't be speaking philosophically to the Jews. They would know that "beginning" would always refer to Creation, the only beginning that they knew of. [QUOTE}

Brother DHK,

What scriptures do you have to prove the "beginning" the devil was a sinner from is only confined to the beginning of creation? I think an even harder thing for you to prove from the Bible is that the Devil was only a murderer from the beginning of creation as we read of know murder he committed in the garden, thus he must have been a murder "from the beginning" (i.e. before the world was created when he was created by God)

 

[DHK]

QUOTE=DHK;2242035]The devil sins from the beginning--the beginning of his time on earth.
There is no time in heaven. Heaven exists outside the realm of time.
The devil sins from the beginning of time. Jesus wouldn't be speaking philosophically to the Jews. They would know that "beginning" would always refer to Creation, the only beginning that they knew of. [QUOTE}

Brother DHK,

What scriptures do you have to prove the "beginning" the devil was a sinner from is only confined to the beginning of creation? I think an even harder thing for you to prove from the Bible is that the Devil was only a murderer from the beginning of creation as we read of know murder he committed in the garden, thus he must have been a murder "from the beginning" (i.e. before the world was created when he was created by God)

There are many unanswered questions and many of them are based on your view of creation.
Did God create all things in a literal six day creation? Does that include angels? Many believe so. In that case the angels were created in the same time frame as man was--within just a few days, and then rebelled, and then cast down to heaven.

Others believe in the Gap Theory which puts an entirely different spin on it.
Others don't believe that angels are included in the Creation story at all.
Still others, take an evolutionary approach.
It would be easier to answer your question knowing where you stand.

The oldest book in the Bible is the Book of Job. However the events of it are close to the time of Abraham, well after the Fall. In the introduction the scene refers to "devil" (not Lucifer) standing before God. It is the devil that is our adversary. He (along with Satan) is the one that we are continually told to "resist" and stand against.

"In the beginning" was the Word...
"in the beginning" God created...

"Beginning refers to the beginning of time for mankind--the beginning of creation. It does not refer to the "beginning of eternity" for there is no such thing. Time exists only as man knows time--in reference to his creation. God stands outside of time.

The devil never murdered in heaven; only on earth. It is in reference to Cain.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Guys, Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are referring to the King of Tyre and Nebachudnezzar respectively, and not Satan.