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I don't think one should speculate on those things that we know not.Brother DHK,
Another question popped into my mind after pondering upon the verses you quoted above. It is true God has promised us in heaven, "27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:27). My question to you is this, if as you say Satan was created without sin, but then sinned in heaven, then how can God promise that there shall in "no wise enter into it any thing that defileth"? Couldn't history just repeat itself with another being sinning like Satan did?
Rebel,your picture will be permanently placed next to the word hypocriteNow, see, you are getting personal, nasty, and attacking me. I have not done that to you. I DID NOT personally attack you.
I wonder why Calvinists resort to this type of bull?
you apparently worship a puppeteer god who has absolutely no resemblance to the God of the Bible.
Rebel,your picture will be permanently placed next to the word hypocrite
Iniquity was found in hHe was created perfect in all his ways. Perfect, even with the meaning of "complete," cannot mean sinful or evil. That would infer a defect. God did not create Adam a sinful creature. He was perfect, complete, without sin. So was Lucifer, and Lucifer was in a perfect place, a place where sin cannot exist. It is impossible for God to create sin. It is against his nature. He does not allow anything that is sinful in his heaven.
What was heaven like before God created the earth, and this heaven as we know it?
Someday God will create a new heaven. Perhaps it will be like something like the heaven God had before man entered on the scene.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--God does not tolerate evil. He does not create evil. Evil does not live with God. It cannot exist with God. Inasmuch as God is light there is no darkness with God, and evil is darkness. To believe that God created and is the author of evil is totally incomprehensible and goes against the very nature of God which is good, and who is light--in whom is no darkness.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
--It is absolutely impossible for God to create darkness (as in evil) for there is no darkness able to abide in his light.
When the perfect and sinless Lucifer rebelled against the perfect and holy God, then the perfect, sovereign holy God had no choice but to kick him and all those that followed him out of heaven.
Many expositors believe "serpent" is better translated "dragon." Either way it has nothing to do with Satan. Jamieson Faucett and Brown say:
The serpent was created, created as an animal. It was more subtle than all other animals and so "lucifer," i.e. Satan, was able to inhabit it or use it to deceive Eve. Note, it is not natural for serpents to speak. Satan does miracles also.
Satan had a offspring! Gen 3:14-15! You don't believe Gods words is your problem!In Genesis 3:15 we have a prophecy of a physical offspring, the first Messianic prophecy, referring to the incarnation of Christ. That is what it refers to.
There is no other physical offspring involved.
Ok, it was a good read for myself, God used it to establish me in the Faith!Amen brother! By the way, thanks for recommending that article by English Paticular Baptist John Brine on eternal justification.
After the creation of satan iniquity is found in him Ezekiel 28:15, how did it come to be in him?He was created perfect in all his ways. Perfect, even with the meaning of "complete," cannot mean sinful or evil. That would infer a defect. God did not create Adam a sinful creature. He was perfect, complete, without sin. So was Lucifer, and Lucifer was in a perfect place, a place where sin cannot exist. It is impossible for God to create sin. It is against his nature. He does not allow anything that is sinful in his heaven.
What was heaven like before God created the earth, and this heaven as we know it?
Someday God will create a new heaven. Perhaps it will be like something like the heaven God had before man entered on the scene.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--God does not tolerate evil. He does not create evil. Evil does not live with God. It cannot exist with God. Inasmuch as God is light there is no darkness with God, and evil is darkness. To believe that God created and is the author of evil is totally incomprehensible and goes against the very nature of God which is good, and who is light--in whom is no darkness.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
--It is absolutely impossible for God to create darkness (as in evil) for there is no darkness able to abide in his light.
When the perfect and sinless Lucifer rebelled against the perfect and holy God, then the perfect, sovereign holy God had no choice but to kick him and all those that followed him out of heaven.
Many expositors believe "serpent" is better translated "dragon." Either way it has nothing to do with Satan. Jamieson Faucett and Brown say:
The serpent was created, created as an animal. It was more subtle than all other animals and so "lucifer," i.e. Satan, was able to inhabit it or use it to deceive Eve. Note, it is not natural for serpents to speak. Satan does miracles also.
That's the problem, you try to understand the scriptures naturally, but it's not a natural book ,it is to be spiritually discerned! Satan was given a offspring, a seed Gen 3:14-15! Also his offspring is not Gods Offspring! Two different o ffsprings !He was created perfect in all his ways. Perfect, even with the meaning of "complete," cannot mean sinful or evil. That would infer a defect. God did not create Adam a sinful creature. He was perfect, complete, without sin. So was Lucifer, and Lucifer was in a perfect place, a place where sin cannot exist. It is impossible for God to create sin. It is against his nature. He does not allow anything that is sinful in his heaven.
What was heaven like before God created the earth, and this heaven as we know it?
Someday God will create a new heaven. Perhaps it will be like something like the heaven God had before man entered on the scene.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--God does not tolerate evil. He does not create evil. Evil does not live with God. It cannot exist with God. Inasmuch as God is light there is no darkness with God, and evil is darkness. To believe that God created and is the author of evil is totally incomprehensible and goes against the very nature of God which is good, and who is light--in whom is no darkness.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
--It is absolutely impossible for God to create darkness (as in evil) for there is no darkness able to abide in his light.
When the perfect and sinless Lucifer rebelled against the perfect and holy God, then the perfect, sovereign holy God had no choice but to kick him and all those that followed him out of heaven.
Many expositors believe "serpent" is better translated "dragon." Either way it has nothing to do with Satan. Jamieson Faucett and Brown say:
The serpent was created, created as an animal. It was more subtle than all other animals and so "lucifer," i.e. Satan, was able to inhabit it or use it to deceive Eve. Note, it is not natural for serpents to speak. Satan does miracles also.
They don't prove it to me! The serpent seed sinned in their father the devil, that is why they are liars and will never abide in the Truth John 8:44 ! You quoting those verses doesn't prove anything except all men are born sinful!Brother SovereignGrace and Brother SavedbyMercy,
Two expressions of Paul are enough to disprove the Two Seed Doctrine that the nonelect were not "in Adam" when he fell. First, "we were by nature children of wrath even as others" (Ephesians 2:3), and second, "hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:21) Also did one ever say to the Lord, "I was better by nature than those who are not redeemed?"
I also must say BJ that your position here is a attack on the Sovereignty and Immutatabilty of God, for man at Creation was made in the image and Likeness of God Gen 1:26;Acts 17:26 ! You are teaching that, that which was in Gods image and Likeness , will be confirmed as Satan's offspring, that is blasphemy!Brother SovereignGrace and Brother SavedbyMercy,
Two expressions of Paul are enough to disprove the Two Seed Doctrine that the nonelect were not "in Adam" when he fell. First, "we were by nature children of wrath even as others" (Ephesians 2:3), and second, "hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:21) Also did one ever say to the Lord, "I was better by nature than those who are not redeemed?"
Now, see, you are getting personal, nasty, and attacking me. I have not done that to you. Yes, I spoke strongly against Calvinism but DID NOT personally attack you. I wonder why Calvinists resort to this type of bull? Not all do, but it's a typical tactic by many.
I worship the God of the Bible whose very character is defined by freedom. So, you want to get personal? Okay, you apparently worship a puppeteer god who has absolutely no resemblance to the God of the Bible.
I have learned much by being on here and on other forums. I have learned that Romanism and Calvinism are much more pernicious than I had even thought previously, the worst systems in Christendom.
That's the problem, you try to understand the scriptures naturally, but it's not a natural book ,it is to be spiritually discerned! Satan was given a offspring, a seed Gen 3:14-15! Also his offspring is not Gods Offspring! Two different o ffsprings !
I don't think one should speculate on those things that we know not.
Having said that, I believe the promises given in Rev.20-22 are fairly firm, from Rev.21:8 to Rev.21:27 God has promised to keep all evil out of this new earth and new heaven. So it doesn't seem likely that another "Fall" would ever happen.
And I can't see where you have any spiritual understanding, you use natural understanding to undertand spiritual truth!That is right. One needs spiritual eyes to understand it. Allegory (your method) is an invention of man originating by a heretic, Origen. Even the RCC recognized this and excommunicated him. Augustine, one of the Father of the RCC, however, popularized this method of interpretation. It doesn't have much to stand upon. The early believers never used it. It is an invention of man. It does not use "spiritual eyes" but the eyes of the natural man.
The Bible was meant to be taken literally.
According to Genesis 3:15 the seed of the woman is Jesus Christ, a prophecy pointing directly to Him and no one else.
The offspring of Satan is totally spiritual, not physical.
An example of that is given in 1John 3:
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
--Whoever commits sin is of the devil, that is, whoever continues in a lifestyle of sin is of the devil.
In opposition to that John says:
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
--Those that are born again do not continue in sin because their lives have been changed by Christ. They have been born of the Spirit of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
--Thus there are two: These are entirely spiritual--children of the devil and children of God. One becomes a child of God by trusting Christ.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
--The mark of a true believer is love.
The mark of the unsaved is selfishness. He looks out for #1--himself.
Cain did not love his brother. He murdered him. This was evidence that he was not saved; that he was "of the devil." It is spiritual not physical.
I also must say BJ that your position here is a attack on the Sovereignty and Immutatabilty of God, for man at Creation was made in the image and Likeness of God Gen 1:26;Acts 17:26 ! You are teaching that, that which was in Gods image and Likeness , will be confirmed as Satan's offspring, that is blasphemy!
My position is founded on Gods words, not men, you trust in men more than the word of God, and again your position is a attack on the Sovereignty and Immutability of God, that Men made in the image and Likeness of God became the seed of the serpent, with no hope of redemption, that is your position, it is a disgrace!BrotherSavedbyMercy,
I am going to drop this issue after this post and we will have to just agree to disagree on this subject. Here is my last question to you on this topic, can you name me one theologian who lived after the time the Bible was written (other than Elder Daniel Parker) who believed that the nonelect (i.e. children of the devil) were not "in Adam" when he fell? I cannot find one, and this lack of historical documentation in any writings gives credence to my assertion that it is a false doctrine. If you can't produce anyone who believed it, nor is it in any Baptist confession of faith, it can't stand the historical test. Do you believe the apostles believed this doctrine, but then it was discarded for 2,000 years until you "rediscovered" in in the scripture?
I believe you have plenty of good doctrine you teach on these boards in regards to such matters as eternal justification, eternal vital union, Christ's seed, anti gospel regeneration, but in regards to asserting the nonelect were never in Adam when he fell, you are in serious error brother.
I think most of us know that the same could be said of yourself.And I can't see where you have any spiritual understanding, you use natural understanding to undertand spiritual truth!
See you at the Judgment!I think most of us know that the same could be said of yourself.
They don't prove it to me! The serpent seed sinned in their father the devil, that is why they are liars and will never abide in the Truth John 8:44 ! You quoting those verses doesn't prove anything except all men are born sinful!
Brother Rebel,
I apologize for offending you and attacking you by saying "you worship free will..". I let my sinful nature get the best of me because I got upset with your remarks regarding determinism. I usually try to stay on the topic of the Bible.
You teach that man in Adam made in the image of God, becomes the seed of the serpent, and that which was made in God's image and Likeness shall spend eternity in the lake of fire , oh what a victory for the devil!BrotherSavedbymercy,
The question is, in what manner was Adam made in the likeness of God? Adam was not made in the image of God in that he was made a miniature-copy of God (I am not saying you teach this). That is not the thought at all. Let us see what the record says: “27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:17) Right here, in the fact that in Adam God made both male and female in one person Adam, we see the figure of Christ. Just as the church is the bride of Christ, and was in him before the world began, so Eve was the companion of Adam, and was in Adam when he was formed from the dust of the ground, not having then any separate being from him. Adam, the one individual, was made male and female; he and his bride were one in creation and formation. So Christ and his church are one. Now, when this was done Brother Savedbymercy, the serpent's seed was not in Adam because Adam had not yet had sin imputed to him as a result of the fall, thus he was in the image of God without sin. You also agree with me that sin entered into Adam's flesh because of the fall and we would both agree sin entering into Adam did not negate the fact that he was indeed originally made in the image of God, why then does asserting that along with sin, the serpent's seed also spiritually entered into Adam deny the fact that Adam was originally created in God's image without sin with his bride in him ?
God bless,
Brother Joe