So asking my ? again.

[savedbymercy]

Brother Sovereign,

I too like BrotherSavedbymercy have come to believe in the doctrine of eternal justification after studying it further from the scripture. The great Baptist John Gill believed in it and I would hardly classify him as a heretic, would you? Here is an article he wrote on the matter http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index04.htm

Also, John Brine was also an English Particular Baptist minister from the 1700s, hardly a heretic, and he wrote an article on it that I would recommend you read if you ever have the time. It is backed by tons of scripture. Here it is \
http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index03.htm

Ephesians 1:3 clearly states, "our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (this occurred in heavenly places according to this verse, not on earth), therefore we are blessed with all spiritual blessing, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ. Is not justification a spiritual blessing?

B. There are two facts which compel one to look upon justification as an eternal act of God.

1. Had it not been for the fact that God looked upon his elect as being righteous and justified in Christ from eternity, he would have destroyed our race as soon as Adam sinned. God spares the wicked for the sake of the righteous. (Illustration: Lot and the men of Sodom.)

2. The Old Testament saints were justified by Christ, just as we are today. And their justification was just as full, complete, and perfect as ours (Heb. 9:15, 22; Rom. 3:25). Every true believer is eternally justified in the purpose of God."

God bless,

Brother Joe

Also Eternal Life is a Spiritual Blessing Eph 1:3 God gave it to the Elect in His Son before the foundation of the world 1 John 5:11, that is a Gospel Testimony!

 

[savedbymercy]

QUOTE=DHK;2242035]The devil sins from the beginning--the beginning of his time on earth.
There is no time in heaven. Heaven exists outside the realm of time.
The devil sins from the beginning of time. Jesus wouldn't be speaking philosophically to the Jews. They would know that "beginning" would always refer to Creation, the only beginning that they knew of. [QUOTE}

Brother DHK,

What scriptures do you have to prove the "beginning" the devil was a sinner from is only confined to the beginning of creation? I think an even harder thing for you to prove from the Bible is that the Devil was only a murderer from the beginning of creation as we read of know murder he committed in the garden, thus he must have been a murder "from the beginning" (i.e. before the world was created when he was created by God)

People can argue the exact date of the devil's sins , the fact is that he did sin, and as Adam, his sin was not that only of a private person, but as the head /Father of a seed, a offspring! The sin of satan and his offspring is not redeemable, but the sin of Adam and his offspring is redeemed by the seed of the Woman, Christ!

 

[DHK]

People can argue the exact date of the devil's sins , the fact is that he did sin, and as Adam, his sin was not that only of a private person, but as the head /Father of a seed, a offspring! The sin of satan and his offspring is not redeemable, but the sin of Adam and his offspring is redeemed by the seed of the Woman, Christ!

In Genesis 3:15 we have a prophecy of a physical offspring, the first Messianic prophecy, referring to the incarnation of Christ. That is what it refers to.
There is no other physical offspring involved.

 

[Rebel]

It is the truth. If God didn't will the fall why on earth was Satan put in the garden to begin with? Also, why did He create things the way he did, if he foreknew they wouldn't function according to His purpose after he created them and would cost Him the death of His son? Not even a human creator of a machine would make a machine knowingly that it wouldn't work properly and break down would they, thus how can you conclude God would operate in such a manner?

Finally, if it was God's will that Adam and Eve always remain in the garden, why did he say,"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Genesis 1:28) Now the word "replenish" means to fill up. From this it can be seen that instead of God intending them to remain in the garden, He meant for them to fill up and inhabit the entire earth. To this I will add the 29th verse, "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." (Genesis 1:29)? In the first place, we see from this, that man was intended to inhabit the entire earth, from the fact that the fruits that grow upon the face of the entire earth were to be meat, or food for him. And in the second place, we see that the fruit of every tree that bore seed was to be food for them for meat.

This exemplifies the great chasm between the god of Calvinism and the God of the Bible: Satan was not PUT in the garden. Satan was a free moral agent who CHOSE to rebel against God. He was free to go and do as he CHOSE. He was not PUT anywhere. He CHOSE to go to the garden and tempt Adam and Eve, just as he CHOSE to rebel in heaven against God and was cast out.

The deterministic fatalistic god of Calvinism is NOT the God of the Bible or the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. This deterministic god of Calvinism is akin to the god of Muhammad and Islam. Calvinism is a false gospel. No, actually since "gospel" means 'good news', Calvinism is no gospel at all. The Calvinist god is a puppetmaster with humans as his puppets. This is an evil god, not the God of love of the Bible, not the true Creator, not the Father of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

'….I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal:"

 

[BrotherJoseph]

There are many unanswered questions and many of them are based on your view of creation.
Did God create all things in a literal six day creation? Does that include angels? Many believe so. In that case the angels were created in the same time frame as man was--within just a few days, and then rebelled, and then cast down to heaven.

Others believe in the Gap Theory which puts an entirely different spin on it.
Others don't believe that angels are included in the Creation story at all.
Still others, take an evolutionary approach.
It would be easier to answer your question knowing where you stand.

The oldest book in the Bible is the Book of Job. However the events of it are close to the time of Abraham, well after the Fall. In the introduction the scene refers to "devil" (not Lucifer) standing before God. It is the devil that is our adversary. He (along with Satan) is the one that we are continually told to "resist" and stand against.

"In the beginning" was the Word...
"in the beginning" God created...

"Beginning refers to the beginning of time for mankind--the beginning of creation. It does not refer to the "beginning of eternity" for there is no such thing. Time exists only as man knows time--in reference to his creation. God stands outside of time.

The devil never murdered in heaven; only on earth. It is in reference to Cain.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Brother DHK,

We can both agree God created all things, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:". Only God is eternal. I believe when scripture talks about the devil being a murder from the beginning and sinneth from the beginning, it is referring to as soon as he was created. We can probably also both agree scripture does not give us information on when he was formed. The devil did not fall as he was a murderer and sinned from the beginning. Job 26:13 declares, "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent". Notice the serpent is crooked when he was formed, he did not end up crooked after falling. The "crooked serpent" is clearly the devil as Isaiah 27:1 proves, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea".

Adam and Eve were created innocent, but not righteous, however we can see why Eve fell as it was a result of the sinful devil deceiving her to pick the fruit, thus she choose to sin. However, if Satan was not created evil and you have him created innocent, you have a problem and it is this-How could Satan fall if he had no inclination in his nature to do evil, nor any outside influences that would sway him to do evil? With Eve, the question is answered in that she had the outside influence of the devil that God put into the garden to deceive her that caused her to fall, but if Satan is the first sinner and if he wasn't born sinful how without any outside influence of evil would he elect to do evil?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

See bolded part of your first topic: The reason he could choose evil is the same reason Adam could choose evil: God gave Satan and Adam free will, the right of contrary choice. Such freedom is part of God's character, and He gave every spiritual being He ever created that freedom.

Brother Rebel,

Adam choose evil because he was influenced by Eve who was a sinner herself for choosing evil because she was in turninfluenced by the devil who was in the garden (put there by God by the way for God's purpose), however if Satan is the first sinful being that came into existence, but as you maintain he was not created evil (I disagree with you), how on earth could the devil choose to do evil if he had no inclination in his DNA that was evil, nor any outside evil influences such as Eve had with the devil in the garden, to influence him to sin and thus fall?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Guys, Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are referring to the King of Tyre and Nebachudnezzar respectively, and not Satan.

Brother,

To be fair, you do know I believe there are many respected theologians who in there commentary believe Ezekiel 28 besides referring to the King of Tyre is also referring to Satan?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Also Eternal Life is a Spiritual Blessing Eph 1:3 God gave it to the Elect in His Son before the foundation of the world 1 John 5:11, that is a Gospel Testimony!

Amen brother! By the way, thanks for recommending that article by English Paticular Baptist John Brine on eternal justification.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

People can argue the exact date of the devil's sins , the fact is that he did sin, and as Adam, his sin was not that only of a private person, but as the head /Father of a seed, a offspring! The sin of satan and his offspring is not redeemable, but the sin of Adam and his offspring is redeemed by the seed of the Woman, Christ!

Brother SavedbyMercy,

Do you agree with me that the devil was created evil?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

In Genesis 3:15 we have a prophecy of a physical offspring, the first Messianic prophecy, referring to the incarnation of Christ. That is what it refers to.
There is no other physical offspring involved.

Brother DHK,

Christ has a seed and so does the devil. This is taught by Christ, "37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;"

This parable Jesus's is explaining clearly says Christ plants the "good seed" who are the "children of the kingdom" and also the devil is the one who sows the "children of the wicked one". Satan's seed however is spiritual not physical, now are they physical descendants of Cane, and of course to preach Satan had intercourse with Eve to produce the "children of the wicked one" is also heresy.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

This exemplifies the great chasm between the god of Calvinism and the God of the Bible: Satan was not PUT in the garden. Satan was a free moral agent who CHOSE to rebel against God. He was free to go and do as he CHOSE. He was not PUT anywhere. He CHOSE to go to the garden and tempt Adam and Eve, just as he CHOSE to rebel in heaven against God and was cast out.

Brother Rebel,

Was Satan in the garden against the will of God? If so, please give me the scripture. Also, Satan is not "free to go and do as he Chose". That is ridiculous unscriptural nonsense! Job 1:12 clearly teaches otherwise, "12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord" God was telling Satan what he could do. Also after Satan did everything to Job, tell me this, why did Job state, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21), but we know it was Satan that did it, was Job wrong in saying the Lord did it? No, as the next verse makes it clear he was not ,"22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." (Job 1:22)

These verses in Job are proof that show Satan is only a pawn that God uses to fulfill His holy purposes! (I know the God you worship isn't that powerful Brother Rebel). If the passages in Job aren't enough proof to you that Satan is but a pawn here is more proof- Looking at book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, you are absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.

Brother Rebel, it is obvious you worship free will and exalt it at the very expense of the will of God and His Divine sovereignty. You even posted to me before that it is a possibility that sin could enter into heaven after Christ's return! God predestinated everything that comes to pass and thus works all things after His will, not after the will of man. God is not reactionary creating a "plan B" because His "plan A" was foiled by Adam and Eve in the garden. Why would God create something knowing it wasn't going to function according to how He wanted it to? Not even the dumbest man would do that! As for God doing all things after His will, you don't have to take my word for it, here you go, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11).

Here is another verse for you if you have complaints about how God does things, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

 

[BobRyan]

SO--asking my question again: Adam had many physical sons and daughters. Which of them spiritually were created in God's image, and which were created spiritually unto the serpent?



Does the genealogy in Luke address that question,
as in Sons of God unto, the Christ?

See also what is said of Seth: And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. Gen 4:25


Why do threads get closed?

All are created with fallen sinful natures - Romans 5 since the fall of Adam

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

We can both agree God created all things, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:". Only God is eternal. I believe when scripture talks about the devil being a murder from the beginning and sinneth from the beginning, it is referring to as soon as he was created. We can probably also both agree scripture does not give us information on when he was formed. The devil did not fall as he was a murderer and sinned from the beginning.

He was created perfect in all his ways. Perfect, even with the meaning of "complete," cannot mean sinful or evil. That would infer a defect. God did not create Adam a sinful creature. He was perfect, complete, without sin. So was Lucifer, and Lucifer was in a perfect place, a place where sin cannot exist. It is impossible for God to create sin. It is against his nature. He does not allow anything that is sinful in his heaven.

What was heaven like before God created the earth, and this heaven as we know it?
Someday God will create a new heaven. Perhaps it will be like something like the heaven God had before man entered on the scene.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--God does not tolerate evil. He does not create evil. Evil does not live with God. It cannot exist with God. Inasmuch as God is light there is no darkness with God, and evil is darkness. To believe that God created and is the author of evil is totally incomprehensible and goes against the very nature of God which is good, and who is light--in whom is no darkness.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
--It is absolutely impossible for God to create darkness (as in evil) for there is no darkness able to abide in his light.
When the perfect and sinless Lucifer rebelled against the perfect and holy God, then the perfect, sovereign holy God had no choice but to kick him and all those that followed him out of heaven.

Job 26:13 declares, "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent". Notice the serpent is crooked when he was formed, he did not end up crooked after falling. The "crooked serpent" is clearly the devil as Isaiah 27:1 proves, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea".

Many expositors believe "serpent" is better translated "dragon." Either way it has nothing to do with Satan. Jamieson Faucett and Brown say:

Umbreit less simply, “By His breath He maketh the heavens to revive”: namely, His wind dissipates the clouds, which obscured the shining stars. And so the next clause in contrast, “His hand doth strangle,” that is, obscures the north constellation, the dragon. Pagan astronomy typified the flood trying to destroy the ark by the dragon constellation, about to devour the moon in its eclipsed crescent-shape like a boat (Job_3:8, Margin). But better as English Version (Psa_33:6).
crooked — implying the oblique course, of the stars, or the ecliptic. “Fleeing” or “swift” [Umbreit] (Isa_27:1). This particular constellation is made to represent the splendor of all the stars.

Adam and Eve were created innocent, but not righteous, however we can see why Eve fell as it was a result of the sinful devil deceiving her to pick the fruit, thus she choose to sin. However, if Satan was not created evil and you have him created innocent, you have a problem and it is this-How could Satan fall if he had no inclination in his nature to do evil, nor any outside influences that would sway him to do evil? With Eve, the question is answered in that she had the outside influence of the devil that God put into the garden to deceive her that caused her to fall, but if Satan is the first sinner and if he wasn't born sinful how without any outside influence of evil would he elect to do evil?

The serpent was created, created as an animal. It was more subtle than all other animals and so "lucifer," i.e. Satan, was able to inhabit it or use it to deceive Eve. Note, it is not natural for serpents to speak. Satan does miracles also.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Do you not see two seedism being advocated, Brother Joseph? I agree there are two seeds, elect & non-elect. He(savedbymercy) is espousing the serpent's seed were never from 'the same lump of clay', the clay being Adam[Rom. 9:21]. He is saying the fall of Adam never affected the goats, but the fall of Cain made them the bad seed. Or that is how it comes across to me.

Brother SovereignGrace and Brother SavedbyMercy,

Two expressions of Paul are enough to disprove the Two Seed Doctrine that the nonelect were not "in Adam" when he fell. First, "we were by nature children of wrath even as others" (Ephesians 2:3), and second, "hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:21) Also did one ever say to the Lord, "I was better by nature than those who are not redeemed?"

 

[BrotherJoseph]

He was created perfect in all his ways. Perfect, even with the meaning of "complete," cannot mean sinful or evil. That would infer a defect. God did not create Adam a sinful creature. He was perfect, complete, without sin. So was Lucifer, and Lucifer was in a perfect place, a place where sin cannot exist. .

I agree Adam was not created sinful. Allow me to play "devils advocate" (pardon the pun), but suppose you are correct and Satan was not created sinful or evil, then how on earth could he choose to do something sinful that would cause his fall if sin was not in his DNA, therefore he had no inclinations toward sin that were originally in him, and no outside sinful influences that could deceive him into sinning (as what happened to Eve in the garden with Satan)? If Satan was created with no desire to sin, then where did the desire come from? Before one can commit an act of sin there must first be a desire to perform that act.

It is impossible for God to create sin. It is against his nature..

I agree God cannot sin and is not the author of sin, but I maintain that God creating Satan evil would not make him the author of sin because what defines something as sin is intent. Therefore, if God created Satan evil in order that he could manifest toward His elect reconciliation, justification, redemption, mercy, grace, the greatest love ever seen of the sacrifice of His Son for sin, his intent was good, therefore it was not sinful to create Satan as such, after all, without sin none of these things could have been manifested toward His children. I no I have given the analogy a hundred of times here, but I will give it again, if a physician amputates a limb to save a man it is not sinful, but if he amputates a limb out of malice to cause the man pain he is in sin.

Finally, even by taking your position that Satan was not created sinful, you are still left with the problem of why would God create Satan in such a manner that he foreknew he would sin if His will was that Satan never sinned? Also, wouldn't creating Satan in such a way with foreknowledge that he would end up falling be deliberately and unnecessarily costing God the death of His son?

I hope you will answer all the questions in this post I have asked you as you have time. I know from our prior discussions, though we rarely disagree, you are not known for not answering questions. I enjoy our discussions.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
.Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--God does not tolerate evil. He does not create evil. Evil does not live with God. It cannot exist with God. Inasmuch as God is light there is no darkness with God, and evil is darkness. To believe that God created and is the author of evil is totally incomprehensible and goes against the very nature of God which is good, and who is light--in whom is no darkness.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
--It is absolutely impossible for God to create darkness (as in evil) for there is no darkness able to abide in his light.
When the perfect and sinless Lucifer rebelled against the perfect and holy God, then the perfect, sovereign holy God had no choice but to kick him and all those that followed him out of heaven.

Brother DHK,

Another question popped into my mind after pondering upon the verses you quoted above. It is true God has promised us in heaven, "27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:27). My question to you is this, if as you say Satan was created without sin, but then sinned in heaven, then how can God promise that there shall in "no wise enter into it any thing that defileth"? Couldn't history just repeat itself with another being sinning like Satan did?

 

[DHK]

I agree Adam was not created sinful. Allow me to play "devils advocate" (pardon the pun), but suppose you are correct and Satan was not created sinful or evil, then how on earth could he choose to do something sinful that would cause his fall if sin was not in his DNA, therefore he had no inclinations toward sin that were originally in him, and no outside sinful influences that could deceive him into sinning (as what happened to Eve in the garden with Satan)? If Satan was created with no desire to sin, then where did the desire come from? Before one can commit an act of sin there must first be a desire to perform that act.

I agree (with most of the theology books I have read), that at the beginning of their creation the angels also went through some period of testing. Satan "of his own free will" rebelled against God and one third of the angels followed in his rebellion. The others remained loyal to the Lord. They that remained to the Lord "were confirmed in their holiness."
There is nothing evil about creating a being with a free will. The evil comes from a decision made from the creation that is able to choose between right and wrong, just like Adam did. IMO, there is no such thing as "creating evil." It is a choice.

I agree God cannot sin and is not the author of sin, but I maintain that God creating Satan evil would not make him the author of sin because what defines something as sin is intent. Therefore, if God created Satan evil in order that he could manifest toward His elect reconciliation, justification, redemption, mercy, grace, the greatest love ever seen of the sacrifice of His Son for sin, his intent was good, therefore it was not sinful to create Satan as such, after all, without sin none of these things could have been manifested toward His children.

I simply don't believe he created anything with sin. Satan chose to sin apart from God. But God knew it would happen, and he also knew that Christ would have to be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world."

I no I have given the analogy a hundred of times here, but I will give it again, if a physician amputates a limb to save a man it is not sinful, but if he amputates a limb out of malice to cause the man pain he is in sin.

But there was and never is malice with God. It was simply the free will of Satan, which is described quite well in Isaiah 14. In just a few short verses he uses the first personal pronoun "I" five times--the sin of pride.

Finally, even by taking your position that Satan was not created sinful, you are still left with the problem of why would God create Satan in such a manner that he foreknew he would sin if His will was that Satan never sinned?

He was just the first one, albeit the leader. Remember, one third of all the angels of heaven followed in that remember. Often we just think of the one angel--Lucifer. He wasn't the only one. That demonstrates that more than just one angel had a will whether or not to follow God or rebel against him.

Also, wouldn't creating Satan in such a way with foreknowledge that he would end up falling be deliberately and unnecessarily costing God the death of His son?

I would rather use the word "omniscience." He knew ahead of time. He knew it would happen. But his knowledge didn't cause it to happen. If he didn't have the knowledge (omniscience) he would not be God.

I hope you will answer all the questions in this post I have asked you as you have time. I know from our prior discussions, though we rarely disagree, you are not known for not answering questions. I enjoy our discussions.

I try.

 

[Rebel]

Brother Rebel,

Adam choose evil because he was influenced by Eve who was a sinner herself for choosing evil because she was in turninfluenced by the devil who was in the garden (put there by God by the way for God's purpose), however if Satan is the first sinful being that came into existence, but as you maintain he was not created evil (I disagree with you), how on earth could the devil choose to do evil if he had no inclination in his DNA that was evil, nor any outside evil influences such as Eve had with the devil in the garden, to influence him to sin and thus fall?

There has to be freedom of contrary choice. Without it, there is no freedom at all, and without freedom, we are mere puppets. The freedom to choose contrary to the good creates the possibility of evil. Making that actual choice is what creates evil, which is the opposite of good. God is not a determinist God. He created everything good but with freedom to choose opposite to the good. So, evil was a possibility from the beginning but not an actuality until it was CHOSEN; thus it came into existence, into being, embodied, if you will, in Lucifer, and in all those who chose to join him in rebellion against God.

 

[Rebel]

Brother Rebel,

Was Satan in the garden against the will of God? If so, please give me the scripture. Also, Satan is not "free to go and do as he Chose". That is ridiculous unscriptural nonsense! Job 1:12 clearly teaches otherwise, "12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord" God was telling Satan what he could do. Also after Satan did everything to Job, tell me this, why did Job state, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21), but we know it was Satan that did it, was Job wrong in saying the Lord did it? No, as the next verse makes it clear he was not ,"22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." (Job 1:22)

These verses in Job are proof that show Satan is only a pawn that God uses to fulfill His holy purposes! (I know the God you worship isn't that powerful Brother Rebel). If the passages in Job aren't enough proof to you that Satan is but a pawn here is more proof- Looking at book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, you are absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.

Brother Rebel, it is obvious you worship free will and exalt it at the very expense of the will of God and His Divine sovereignty. You even posted to me before that it is a possibility that sin could enter into heaven after Christ's return! God predestinated everything that comes to pass and thus works all things after His will, not after the will of man. God is not reactionary creating a "plan B" because His "plan A" was foiled by Adam and Eve in the garden. Why would God create something knowing it wasn't going to function according to how He wanted it to? Not even the dumbest man would do that! As for God doing all things after His will, you don't have to take my word for it, here you go, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11).

Here is another verse for you if you have complaints about how God does things, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now, see, you are getting personal, nasty, and attacking me. I have not done that to you. Yes, I spoke strongly against Calvinism but DID NOT personally attack you. I wonder why Calvinists resort to this type of bull? Not all do, but it's a typical tactic by many.

I worship the God of the Bible whose very character is defined by freedom. So, you want to get personal? Okay, you apparently worship a puppeteer god who has absolutely no resemblance to the God of the Bible.

I have learned much by being on here and on other forums. I have learned that Romanism and Calvinism are much more pernicious than I had even thought previously, the worst systems in Christendom.