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So why are the old Fundamentalist mad at the young ones?
- Thread starter 4His_glory
- Start date
What do you mean by liberal?
Liberal as in not scripturally sound or liberal as in offensive to your traditions?
I am very conservative in my musical taste... but please point to the scripture that says what style of music should be in the church... or even that there should be music at all.It is upsetting to methat when I go on vacation and see a Church with a sign that says Independent Fundamental Baptist, that I can't know in advance that I'm not going to hear preaching from a worldly viewpoint, or be exposed to music that belongs at the local drug house.
Yes. My honest assessment is that you are trying to justify a knee jerk reaction to things you see as representing change. Rather than evaluating those things strictly by the text of scripture, you are confusing contradictions with tradition with contradictions to God's Word.I hope I still managed to make my point while being so reserved in manner.
Pastor Mark.
I am not trying to offend you in this. You just don't seem to see what you are doing. I am also uncomfortable with much of what is coming into churches... but that has to be tempered with the absolute rule that we use scripture to evaluate things rather than our opinions and familiar traditions.
PastorMark
Member
1) Since any "traditions" that I follow are "biblically sound" they are the same to me.
2) Music is like anything else in our life. It should be pleasing to God. If the music causes physical gyrations which are sensual in nature, then I don't think it belongs in the Church. (as in "Abstain from all appearance of evil.")
3) I ABSOLUTELY agree that "we use scripture to evaluate things, rather than our opinions and familiar traditions." It seems that you might be getting my point after all.
Pastor Mark.
2) Music is like anything else in our life. It should be pleasing to God. If the music causes physical gyrations which are sensual in nature, then I don't think it belongs in the Church. (as in "Abstain from all appearance of evil.")
3) I ABSOLUTELY agree that "we use scripture to evaluate things, rather than our opinions and familiar traditions." It seems that you might be getting my point after all.
Pastor Mark.
Think about that answer. Does the fact that your tradition is "biblically sound" preclude changes from it or from some other style/practice being "biblically sound"? Obviously not. So when you apply your traditions as standards to others in order to judge them liberal or whatever, you are adding to scripture- very much like the Pharisees Jesus condemned.
Who made you or me the arbitor of what is pleasing to God and what isn't?
I don't like very much SGM anymore. There are alot of reasons not the least of which was the hypocrisy I saw growing up in SGM artists. Now would it be fair for me to judge you by that standard? My tradition goes back further than yours if you like SGM. SGM has its roots in the 50's and 60's. Some of the hymns we sing and their music are several hundred years old... but even then, they were possibly an affront to someone's tradition in music.
I don't have a problem with that point... I have a problem with equating traditions that we personally accept with scriptural mandate. These "new" practices should be evaluated on their own biblical merit... not against our tradition.
Charles Meadows
New Member
What makes me ( I guess I'm in the "young fundamentalist" group" ) sick is those who claim to be Christians but have only sour judgmental looks for other believers, who spend 99.9% of preaching on what they are "against", who would ask a woman wearing slacks to leave church, who would call any nonKJV bible a "devil's bible". The same are WHITED SEPULCHRES and are more disciples of the ancient Pharisees than of Jesus. They do unimaginable damage to the credibility of Christian witness in America today.
MikeinGhana
New Member
Pastor Mark
In truth I probably line up closer to and your standards than others I see on this board. That aside, I think the statement you made, "so called fundamentalists" strikes at the core of what this debate is all about. They are fundamentalists because they hold to the fundamentals of the faith. As I have always defined that it has been the absoluite authority of the Bible, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the atoning work of the cross, and so forth. These other issues being mentioned along the line of dress and conduct standards are not the fundamentals. I do not oppose CCM because it is new. I oppose the music that is sensuous and carnal. Yes, I do believe we can judge what is sensuous and carnal if we will be totally honest before God. There is doctrine taught in scripture that would allow criticism of that kind of music. We need to be careful not to label people when they are different from us. After all, the name Baptist was a derogatory name given to those that were different from the mainstream church!
In truth I probably line up closer to and your standards than others I see on this board. That aside, I think the statement you made, "so called fundamentalists" strikes at the core of what this debate is all about. They are fundamentalists because they hold to the fundamentals of the faith. As I have always defined that it has been the absoluite authority of the Bible, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the atoning work of the cross, and so forth. These other issues being mentioned along the line of dress and conduct standards are not the fundamentals. I do not oppose CCM because it is new. I oppose the music that is sensuous and carnal. Yes, I do believe we can judge what is sensuous and carnal if we will be totally honest before God. There is doctrine taught in scripture that would allow criticism of that kind of music. We need to be careful not to label people when they are different from us. After all, the name Baptist was a derogatory name given to those that were different from the mainstream church!
PastorMark
Member
1) I've already said this in another post, but Jesus never admonished the Pharisees for their rules, only for being hypocrites. So, don't try to support the idea that there should not be rules. That is anarchy, which is confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.
2) I never said anything about SGM. You brought that in out of nowhere. I agree that alot of SGM is improper, just like rock. Plus, you are still going on about tradition after I pointed out that tradition, except Bible doctrine, has nothing to do with what I am talking about. It has to do with the sort of response the music brings out of a person, and the message the music conveys. Does it honor God, or not?
3) for Charles: You're absolutely correct about not asking anyone to leave the Church. I would never do that. I preach the Word, and the Holy Spirit does the convicting. I had a teenager start coming a while back, and she didn't dress right. I never said anything to her, and I didn't preach on proper dress, but by the end of the first service she was pulling up on her jeans and down on her blouse to try to cover herself. The next week she came in jeans and a blouse that was tucked in, and the week after that she was in an ankle length dress. I never preached on how to properly dress during those three weeks, but the Holy Spirit must have.
Pastor Mark.
2) I never said anything about SGM. You brought that in out of nowhere. I agree that alot of SGM is improper, just like rock. Plus, you are still going on about tradition after I pointed out that tradition, except Bible doctrine, has nothing to do with what I am talking about. It has to do with the sort of response the music brings out of a person, and the message the music conveys. Does it honor God, or not?
3) for Charles: You're absolutely correct about not asking anyone to leave the Church. I would never do that. I preach the Word, and the Holy Spirit does the convicting. I had a teenager start coming a while back, and she didn't dress right. I never said anything to her, and I didn't preach on proper dress, but by the end of the first service she was pulling up on her jeans and down on her blouse to try to cover herself. The next week she came in jeans and a blouse that was tucked in, and the week after that she was in an ankle length dress. I never preached on how to properly dress during those three weeks, but the Holy Spirit must have.
Pastor Mark.
1) He also taught that their legalism had caused them to miss the spirit of the law. BTW, he didn't affirm their additions to God's Word either. But to a very specific point, their traditions were different from your... and yours would likely be offensive to them.
2) I brought in SGM because it is a style of music that many "old fundamentalists" think is perfectly fine... though some of the music of groups like "Gold City" sounds like a honky-tonk... and some of the singers have the sensual passion in their voice that makes much of CCM repulsive to me.
But on that point, not everyone reacts to music the same way. Again, you nor I are qualified to be the infallible oracle for voicing what is God honoring and what isn't.
2) I brought in SGM because it is a style of music that many "old fundamentalists" think is perfectly fine... though some of the music of groups like "Gold City" sounds like a honky-tonk... and some of the singers have the sensual passion in their voice that makes much of CCM repulsive to me.
But on that point, not everyone reacts to music the same way. Again, you nor I are qualified to be the infallible oracle for voicing what is God honoring and what isn't.
PastorMark
Member
You're right. Neither of us is an "infallible oracle," but I am called to Pastor a group of people, and I will lead them as Christ leads me. A Pastor has a different level of responsibility to God than the average person. I take that very seriously, and I will lead the people in the Church He has placed me in as He leads through prayer and Bible reading, and as He speaks to me concerning what He wants accomplished. All the rest of this is drivel in comparison, and I hope you don't think I am going to listen to men over God. However, it is interesting to me to see how others think (or don't).
Pastor Mark.
Pastors have a different responsibility as does everyone else have different responsibilities but not a different level. Pastoring is not a hierarchy but simply different. God's work is done at the same level--all coming to Christ Jesus. He is the high priest.
If however there were levels it would be at the bottom as servant. But James talks about how a servant is to be treated in the church.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Ah, but Pastors do have a different level of responsibility.
The pastor is the shepherd of the local flock.
1 Peter 5 shows that the one responsible for leading the flock will receive a crown that none other can claim... if he is faithful in his responsibilities.
The pastor is the shepherd of the local flock.
1 Peter 5 shows that the one responsible for leading the flock will receive a crown that none other can claim... if he is faithful in his responsibilities.
PastorMark
Member
Pastors have a different responsibility as does everyone else have different responsibilities but not a different level. Pastoring is not a hierarchy but simply different.[/QB][/QUOTE]
I never said Pastors were "better" than anyone else, I said they have a greater responsibility. The Bible is very plain on this to those who have discernment.
Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
Each of us will answer for ourselves, but the Pastor will also "give account" for his congregation, and the Bible says he should be able to do it "with joy, and not with grief."
That sounds like a greater responsibility to me, but not everyone is comfortable with submitting themselves to their Pastor, so I understand your concern.
Pastor Mark.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Amen, Pastor Mark!
I wholeheartedly agree. Pastors are held to a higher responsibility than the congregation.
I was looking for that verse out of Hebrews. Thanks for posting it.
I wholeheartedly agree. Pastors are held to a higher responsibility than the congregation.
I was looking for that verse out of Hebrews. Thanks for posting it.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
NAB Hebrews 13:17 (1 )Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.
NIB Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
NIV Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
I notice that these three translations only say they 'watch over you'. This can be deceiving because the soul is not shown to be important by leaving it out. Only the flesh. In the flesh, we are subjected to earthly judges, but our souls are subject to an higher authority, the Lord God.
NIB Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
NIV Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
I notice that these three translations only say they 'watch over you'. This can be deceiving because the soul is not shown to be important by leaving it out. Only the flesh. In the flesh, we are subjected to earthly judges, but our souls are subject to an higher authority, the Lord God.
PastorMark
Member
Absolutely right!
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Exactly right. That is a huge point in all of this!
Salamander
New Member
Are yall saying that no one can follow clear teachings of Scripture as to establish sound doctrine??????
Isn't the Holy Ghost still the One who guides into all Truth???
Isn't the Holy Ghost still the One who guides into all Truth???
Diggin in da Word
New Member
We do have authority to say what is God honoring.
1. We are to try the Spirits to see if they are of God.
2. We shall know the tree by the fruit it bears.
3. We are to judge righteous judgment.
4. We are to judge those who claim to be of the body.
We have the Word of God to direct us as to what the truth is. If what a person is doing is not lining up with the Word of God, we are to
KJV 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
1. We are to try the Spirits to see if they are of God.
2. We shall know the tree by the fruit it bears.
3. We are to judge righteous judgment.
4. We are to judge those who claim to be of the body.
We have the Word of God to direct us as to what the truth is. If what a person is doing is not lining up with the Word of God, we are to
KJV 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Let's say that I have done so and find the music you like, the clothes you wear, or the way you comb your hair wanting... then what?
What if I told you that I found no scriptural foundation for preachers that yell and scream the same pat phrases week after week? What if I told you that preachers who ride particular hobby horses of questionable biblical basis were not of God and thus offensive?
Is that where you really want to go? How many false professions did folks like Hyles coax? How many people have walked away from church because of the extrabiblical legalism of this or that self styled "fundamentalist"?
Yes and that is my very point. Righteousness is not what suits our traditions and tastes... it is what suits God's will as revealed in scripture.
Based on?... Scripture. Not man made traditions and cultural biases.
Stick with the Word and we have no problem. Add the traditions of men... and you venture to speak for God when He has chosen to remain silent.
Salamander
New Member
"Old paths":
Morals that line up with the Ten Commandments.
What seems as a "new" commandment to love as God has commanded is right inline with the Ten Commandments.
"Today's" fundementalists seem more geared to the entetainment value concerning worship where much of today's fashion is entailed into that worship.
Isaiah 4 deals much with what is expressed by us "Fundies"/ old fundies in that those demand to wear their own apparel and have their own ways.
Old time ethics concerning business ethics are also "Old paths". Many "new" fundementalists seem to feel that today's business tactics are "ok", but what the reality is, is that these tactics are old in their conception birthed out of decei and trickery, also known to be "witty inventions".
If one will take the time to see the context mentioning "old paths" they will find those to be established ways of truth, not a gumbo pot filled with opinions.
Jeremiah is telling Israel to turn from idolatry, again; to repent of immoral behaviour is the ultimate goal insisted upon by the LORD.
What helps to breed immorality by those things associated with immoral behaviour ought to be considered to be opposite and contrary to the "old paths".
Dress, materialism, and music are the majority in those things to lead one astray from the Old paths.
Morals that line up with the Ten Commandments.
What seems as a "new" commandment to love as God has commanded is right inline with the Ten Commandments.
"Today's" fundementalists seem more geared to the entetainment value concerning worship where much of today's fashion is entailed into that worship.
Isaiah 4 deals much with what is expressed by us "Fundies"/ old fundies in that those demand to wear their own apparel and have their own ways.
Old time ethics concerning business ethics are also "Old paths". Many "new" fundementalists seem to feel that today's business tactics are "ok", but what the reality is, is that these tactics are old in their conception birthed out of decei and trickery, also known to be "witty inventions".
If one will take the time to see the context mentioning "old paths" they will find those to be established ways of truth, not a gumbo pot filled with opinions.
Jeremiah is telling Israel to turn from idolatry, again; to repent of immoral behaviour is the ultimate goal insisted upon by the LORD.
What helps to breed immorality by those things associated with immoral behaviour ought to be considered to be opposite and contrary to the "old paths".
Dress, materialism, and music are the majority in those things to lead one astray from the Old paths.