RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
The Orthodox even admit the laity rather than the clergy may be the vessels of orthodoxy, though the only application I’ve encountered deals with iconoclasm.
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Sola Scriptura
- Thread starter robycop3
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Well, all I can say is that history teaches us that there was once but one Christian Church, there was no other. The Catholic were/are orthodox in the sense of the their teachings, i.e. the sacramental way of Christianity. If one does not believe in the 7 sacraments as proclaimed by the Church then to me one is not orthodox or has an orthodox Christian belief. This "orthodoxy" is not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox faith tradition which is now a separate church since the great schism caused a split in the 11th century. I can see that we do indeed look at the word "orthodox" in a different manner as we define faith or faith traditions.
St Athanasius was indeed a "Catholic", a "Universalist" if you will, who saw the Bishop of Rome as the pre-eminent cleric of the faith here on earth. It is also to be noted that doctrinally, our Eastern Orthodox brothers continue to have the same basic belief's as we do, nothing really changed in this regard after the split.
Are all believers in Christ brothers and sisters in the Lord? You bet! We may have our differences but we all believe in Him as the Savior, the Messiah, promised by God the Father.
St Athanasius was indeed a "Catholic", a "Universalist" if you will, who saw the Bishop of Rome as the pre-eminent cleric of the faith here on earth. It is also to be noted that doctrinally, our Eastern Orthodox brothers continue to have the same basic belief's as we do, nothing really changed in this regard after the split.
Are all believers in Christ brothers and sisters in the Lord? You bet! We may have our differences but we all believe in Him as the Savior, the Messiah, promised by God the Father.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
The Coptic Church's patriarch was absorbed into the Catholic Church, Coptics have their own Pope now and then . It did not and does not recognize the Pope of Rome as its Pope, it respects the Roman Pope. If you are talking about St. Athanasius of Alexandria he was the Pope of Alexandria, a COPTIC assembly not Roman. And I said before that it was a Greek influenced region. He was Orthodox not Catholic but his teachings became accepted by Rome, and then later the Catholic Church proclaimed him a Catholic.To dominate is the Roman nature. The Pope of Rome in about 325 was Sylvester he was Pope from 314-335. St. Athanasius was Pope of Alexandria a then Roman province but Coptic was the language and writing before the Roman's invasion . He was forced into exile a number of times by Roman Emperors. But the Coptics were of Greek influence which predates Roman influence. He was an Orthodox father, whose teachings were absorbed into Roman Catholicism. The RCC always does this , it takes from other assemblies and claims it is the one who brought all things about. People buy this rewriting of the Christian history by the RCC and run with it.
It is clear in Paul's writings first to the Jew then the Greek then the Roman. St. Athanasius (in the Greek spelled "Athanasios") was a Greek born in Alexandria Egypt to pagan parents. He was not Roman and Athanasios was his True Greek name, we are given a Latin form through the Roman. Christianity in this region had its roots before it did in Rome. Coptics too predate the Roman based Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is not the only Christian denomination led by a pope. The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, most of whose members reside in Egypt, is also headed by a patriarchal figure referred to as a pope. Both denominations believe that their first pontiff was one of the original 12 apostles of Jesus.
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Not the Church of rome!
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
(In his days, there was but one Universal Christian Church).
This is a play on the word Universal. It is true there was and is only One Universal Church throughout the ages, but it is not Roman, it includes people of Rome, but, it is Hebrew as its founder is, not Roman. People are in for enlightenment in this Rev.12 season. Claiming rights to names and words does not mean Christianity begins and ends with Rome, Rome will end and the WORD will always be.
The faith is CHRISTIAN- Universal Orthodoxy that protest against the world, the flesh and the devil. we all need to listen to each other, esteem each other and yes admonish one another. No one outside of Christianity can do this toward us (Admonish).
READ AND HEAR WITH YOUR HEART. Scripture Alone!
Romans15
Accept One Another
1We who are strong ought to bear with the shortcomings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please Himself, but as it is written: “The insults of those who insult You have fallen on Me.”a 4For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.
5Now may the God of endurance and encouragement grant you harmony with one another in Christ Jesus, 6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ the Servant of Jews and Gentiles
7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring glory to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs, 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for His mercy. As it is written:
“Therefore I will praise You among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to Your name.”b
10Again, it says:
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people.”c
11And again:
“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and extol Him, all you peoples.”d
12And once more, Isaiah says:
“The root of Jesse will appear,
One who will arise to rule over the Gentiles;
in Him the Gentiles will put their hope.”e
13Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you believe in Him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Paul the Minister to the Gentiles
14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, brimming with knowledge, and able to ADMONISH one another. 15However, I have written you a bold reminder on some points, because of the grace God gave me 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an acceptable offering to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
17Therefore I exult in Christ Jesus in my service to God. 18I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
20In this way, I have aspired to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. 21Rather, as it is written:
“Those who were not told about Him will see,
and those who have not heard will understand.”f
22That is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.
Paul's Travel Plans
(1 Corinthians 16:5-9)
23But now that there are no further opportunities for me in these regions, and since I have longed for many years to visit you, 24I hope to see you on my way to Spain. And after I have enjoyed your company for a while, you can equip me for my journey.
The saints become .... wherever the gospel goes. It is not the right or claim of just ONE assembly but all. And scripture will help to weed out the weed doctrine in all. Some denominations have more weeds than others yes, but that is for the faithful to sift out together. Many have come before us (in time) and have built upon the foundation. This is the Rev.12 season where all is tested and the truth will shine forth like the splendor of the sun . WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN.
CONTINUING Scripture:
25Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem to serve the saints there. 26For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. 27They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual blessings, they are obligated to minister to them with material blessings.
28So after I have completed this service and safely delivered this bounty to them, I will set off to Spain by way of you. 29I know that when I come to you, I will come in the fullness of the blessingg of Christ.
30Now I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. 31Pray that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, 32so that by God’s will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed.
33The God of peace be with all of you. Amen.
We all must continue in the way of the apostles and remove the diluted nonsense being preached by some. We must all learn of each other and know all answers are in the scriptures. This would require letting go of indoctrination from men.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
How about we test (Papal Infallibility) only because the RCC is the most dominant denomination and move on from there. Like Apostolic Succession , Theotokos , Immaculate Conception ,predestination and election , Purgatory or as the Hebrews called it (A Passing Through the Fire), what does that really mean, so forth and so on. Scripture will reveal what is silver, gold or precious gems, wood hay or straw. Let's do it respectfully and be willing to let SCRIPTURE answer not denominational indoctrination.
Xin Loi! No one outside the One Triune Supreme Being has the authority to bind or to loose, even, the shoe laces of Yashuah ha'Mashiah except He, YHWH oAs for Jesus speaking, it was the the OT that he was he was referencing. The fact is, the OT leaders were never given the authority to "bind and loose" or to "forgive sins" as the NT leaders were. Thus, while the NT scriptures are authoritative, authority resides in the Church established by Jesus Christ and the Bishops who lead the Church.As for Jesus speaking, it was the the OT that he was he was referencing. The fact is, the OT leaders were never given the authority to "bind and loose" or to "forgive sins" as the NT leaders were. Thus, while the NT scriptures are authoritative, authority resides in the Church established by Jesus Christ and the Bishops who lead the Church.r Ruach permits it to be done. That is, I think, the nicer way to say, you are prof to oundly fullk of yourself and needing to embrace submission to our Master.
God gave to us the Holy Spirit to interprete and reveal the truths of the scriptures, NOT any Church!
That's not what the Scriptures say. It's the the Holy Spirit yes, which guides the Church. One does not exist without the other.
The word "Roman" was used as a pejorative when describing the Catholic (Universal) Church by the renegades led by Martin Luther. Of course it was a Hebrew who founded the Catholic (Universal) Christian Church but it evolved from the Apostles into the church that was led by the Bishop of Rome. All the ECF's listened to him and sought his council.
Here is one of them - St. Ireneaus who wrote: "The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus" (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).
And another, Cyprian of Carthage:
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).
So you see, even in the 200's they knew who they were, what Church they belonged to, and who was the head Bishop. None of this stuff is made up, it is the true verifiable history of the One Catholic (Universal) Christian Church.
And I do brother, within His Holy Church.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
So if a Pope speaks Heresy and does NOT Solely teach the Word and secretly brings in destructive sects you will blindly follow? When does Papal Infallibility not apply in your opinion ?
Where do YOU draw the line? I , being a mother have deep compassion for the Mother of the Lord, where and when do you draw a line ? When do the scourges of heresy affect you, if at all? And if heresy is proven will you still believe in Papal Infallibility?
But He DID add quite a bit to Scripture. He caused certain of His spoken words to be recorded in writing by His apostles; those writings became Scripture.
Those who do NOT believe that Scripture is the highest authority on earth at this time in all matters of faith/worship can make their point by showing us an earthly authority higher than Scripture. How simple is THAT? This authority must have the power to go against Scripture, etc.
So, let's see your best shot!
So, let's see your best shot!
I thought you were suggesting scripture was more important that Jesus's words.
Which is NOT the Church of Rome, but the Church of the Firstborn!
The Scriptures came to us WAY before the catholic Church did, so Rome did not save them for us, nor chose them for us!
No. As of yet during my lifetime that has not happened.
An example would be if the Pope suddenly said same sex marriage was to be just fine from here on out, at that point I would become an Eastern Orthodox adherent.
As far as Mary is concerned I draw the line at much the Mariology that exists within the Church and as things stand now most of that is optional for the faithful. I go with the teaching that as the Mother of God Incarnate, she is to be honored and greatly respected.
Papal Infallibility only exists within the realm of any Pope's pronouncements on faith and morals. Contrary to most people's thinking, the Pope does not come to decisions on these type of issues all by himself. He consults with the other Bishops of the Church in either a Synod or a Council.
As for the current Pope, he is not one that I would have liked to be chosen. He is too far to the left for me and I would have much preferred a man like his predecessor, Pope Benedict.
OfLivingWaters
Active Member
I think you have been hang around Protestants too long "Mariology" ? Papal Infallibility, to that, concerning your stance, most Catholics would say you are not Catholic . Primacy of the Pope for most Catholics is doctrine one must uphold to even claim being Catholic. Seems you too , pick and choose. I would say you are not Catholic. Thanks for your opinions.
Some things are binding for the faithful, the Mary stuff (Mariology) some of it is not. I thought I was clear on the infallibility question, in faith and morals his word is to be accepted, on other things no. It is not as every pronouncement by the Pope rises to the infallibility level.
Primacy of the Pope? Yes, he is the first of all our Bishops, the leader of the institutional church here on earth and I accept that, so where exactly did I say otherwise? This does not mean that I cannot have an opinion about him and in his case he is a left leaning man. I am a Catholic through and through, a believer in the sacraments and our liturgical way of worship - you can be assured of that.
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