Sola Scriptura

[OfLivingWaters]

Some things are binding for the faithful, the Mary stuff (Mariology) some of it is not. I thought I was clear on the infallibility question, in faith and morals his word is to be accepted, on other things no. It is not as every pronouncement by the Pope rises to the infallibility level.

Primacy of the Pope? Yes, he is the first of all our Bishops, the leader of the institutional church here on earth and I accept that, so where exactly did I say otherwise? This does not mean that I cannot have an opinion about him and in his case he is a left leaning man. I am a Catholic through and through, a believer in the sacraments and our liturgical way of worship - you can be assured of that.

I think you misunderstand my tone. That Mariology comment does not come from Catholic teaching is my point, but rather Protestant sects. As for Primacy of the Pope and his Infallibility , I am simply saying your view would upset most Catholics is all, and since you seem to be defending the RCC not Orthodox or Protestant, I was surprised by your answer , that's all. The Mariology thing for sure is interesting.

 

[Stephen61516]

I've just caught up on everyone's input since Sunday when I got a little too sensitive. Adonia, thank you for the Romans 15 quote. That meant a lot to me, I was moved. Your intellect is much greater than mine and I need to read more on the early Church fathers. As it relates to scripture alone I'm still not convinced that anything written outside of the 66 canonical books are scripture. Keep going and I'll listen.

Oflivingwaters, you are interesting as well. I'm learning your position but could you give me some sources for your assertions? Keep up your discussion. I want to understand.

 

[Adonia]

I think you misunderstand my tone. That Mariology comment does not come from Catholic teaching is my point, but rather Protestant sects. As for Primacy of the Pope and his Infallibility , I am simply saying your view would upset most Catholics is all, and since you seem to be defending the RCC not Orthodox or Protestant, I was surprised by your answer , that's all. The Mariology thing for sure is interesting.

I am sorry but you are mistaken on where Mariology comes from. The first Council of Ephesus in 431 approved the devotion to Mary as the Theotokos (God Bearer). It is mainly in Catholic circles ( plus Anglican and Eastern Orthodox) that this "devotion to Mary" has been practiced with the Protestant sects actually coming out against it, calling it "un-Christian" amongst other things.

The teaching of the Catholic Church on the Pope's infallibility is just as I described it, he is infallible on faith and morals - not everything, and every Catholic in the whole world should be believing that. If they are believing something else, then they are in error about the church's teaching on this, not me. I urge you to do a bit more study on these topics and you will see that I am correct in my assertions.

 

[Stephen61516]

I am sorry but you are mistaken on where Mariology comes from. The first Council of Ephesus in 431 approved the devotion to Mary as the Theotokos (God Bearer). It is mainly in Catholic circles ( plus Anglican and Eastern Orthodox) that this "devotion to Mary" has been practiced with the Protestant sects actually coming out against it, calling it "un-Christian" amongst other things.

The teaching of the Catholic Church on the Pope's infallibility is just as I described it, he is infallible on faith and morals - not everything, and every Catholic in the whole world should be believing that. If they are believing something else, then they are in error about the church's teaching on this, not me. I urge you to do a bit more study on these topics and you will see that I am correct in my assertions.

Is there a source we can read on this?

 

[Adonia]

Is there a source we can read on this?

Believe it or not some of it is on Wikipedia, plus the various Catholic sites. Type in "Mariology" and you will get plenty. By all means you should be reading about the Early Church Fathers. I have been a Catholic all my life and just started reading them but a few years ago myself (though I have known about them for years).

I fear we are going astray of the topic here of Sola Scriptura and probably shouldn't. (But this happens a lot) it's one word here, another there and BOOM, we're gone!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

I am sorry but you are mistaken on where Mariology comes from. The first Council of Ephesus in 431 approved the devotion to Mary as the Theotokos (God Bearer). It is mainly in Catholic circles ( plus Anglican and Eastern Orthodox) that this "devotion to Mary" has been practiced with the Protestant sects actually coming out against it, calling it "un-Christian" amongst other things.

The teaching of the Catholic Church on the Pope's infallibility is just as I described it, he is infallible on faith and morals - not everything, and every Catholic in the whole world should be believing that. If they are believing something else, then they are in error about the church's teaching on this, not me. I urge you to do a bit more study on these topics and you will see that I am correct in my assertions.

I did not mistake how you applied it or how you brushed it off as something you do not get into. Knowing about it is one thing but brushing it off another and that is what you did. It is that context I spoke. With that- you are in for a rude awakening because no one brushes off Mother Mary , I mean you certainly can , but it is not advised. And the foundational church never did any such thing. You obviously do not know the mysteries of the scriptures or you would not sound like a Protestant ,concerning her at least.

 

[Stephen61516]

I did not mistake how you applied it or how you brushed it off as something you do not get into. Knowing about it is one thing but brushing it off another and that is what you did. It is that context I spoke. With that- you are in for a rude awakening because no one brushes off Mother Mary , I mean you certainly can , but it is not advised. And the foundational church never did any such thing. You obviously do not know the mysteries of the scriptures or you would not sound like a Protestant ,concerning her at least.

I'm a Protestant but interested in the RCC assertions on a number of fronts. Could you provide any source material on when the holy position of Mother Mary first came about. Scriptural references first since this is a scripture alone string (use your RCC bible) then anything else. Please help me learn.

 

[Stephen61516]

I did not mistake how you applied it or how you brushed it off as something you do not get into. Knowing about it is one thing but brushing it off another and that is what you did. It is that context I spoke. With that- you are in for a rude awakening because no one brushes off Mother Mary , I mean you certainly can , but it is not advised. And the foundational church never did any such thing. You obviously do not know the mysteries of the scriptures or you would not sound like a Protestant ,concerning her at least.

I've texted my pastor (also my son) if he has any material on the early church fathers. I'm concerned that his material may be biased. I won't know until I read it.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

I've texted my pastor (also my son) if he has any material on the early church fathers. I'm concerned that his material may be biased. I won't know until I read it.

How about the first Church fathers.

 

[Stephen61516]

My pastor just texts a source on the early church fathers. It's on line and titled "Ante Nicene Fathers" and he has it in print. If oflivingwaters has other sources, I'm interested.

 

[Stephen61516]

How about the first Church fathers.

That doesn't help. Give me a title or scripture reference. With respect.

 

[Adonia]

I'm a Protestant but interested in the RCC assertions on a number of fronts. Could you provide any source material on when the holy position of Mother Mary first came about. Scriptural references first since this is a scripture alone string (use your RCC bible) then anything else. Please help me learn.

Well let's see here;

1. The Angel Gabriel came and spoke to her saying she would bear the Savior, so I would say that was a pretty big deal in itself.

2. She is to be forever called "Blessed'. So how many of us get this moniker for the rest of our lives and have it placed in the Holy Writ?

3. She is to be "made with child" by the Holy Spirit. That's a pretty holy occasion for sure.

4. She is mentioned many times in the Scriptures and is at some the most important places during Jesus's ministry.

5. She is at the crucifixion, and contrary to standard Jewish practice, Jesus gives her to a non relative for safekeeping, which some have interpreted as her being given to all of us.

6. She has been described as the "New Eve", and in the Book of Revelation the "Queen of Heaven".

All that is pretty standard stuff in the world of orthodox Christianity.

 

[Adonia]

Could you provide any source material on when the holy position of Mother Mary first came about

In post biblical times it came at the Council Of Ephesus in 431 where the Virgin Mary was proclaimed to be the Theotokos (the God Bearer).

 

[Stephen61516]

Well let's see here;

1. The Angel Gabriel came and spoke to her saying she would bear the Savior, so I would say that was a pretty big deal in itself.

2. She is to be forever called "Blessed'. So how many of us get this moniker for the rest of our lives and have it placed in the Holy Writ?

3. She is to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit. That's a pretty holy occasion for sure.

4. She is mentioned many times in the Scriptures and is at some the most important places during Jesus's ministry.

5. She is at the crucifixion, and contrary to standard Jewish practice, Jesus gives her to a non relative for safekeeping, which some have interpreted as her being given to all of us.

6. She has been described as the "New Eve", and in the Book of Revelation the "Queen of Heaven".

All that is pretty standard stuff in the world of orthodox Christianity.

Cool, that gives me a very good start. Thank you.

 

[Adonia]

Cool, that gives me a very good start. Thank you.

Mother Mary can be a difficult subject to discuss sometimes. I have found that sometimes the orthodox faith traditions play her up too much, while the Protestants tend to keep her at a lower level concerning the whole salvation narrative. I believe she has her just place of honor and respect in the Christian experience.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

That doesn't help. Give me a title or scripture reference. With respect.

I was asking how about directly from the foundation. I will share beginning in Genesis concerning the prophecy of her . I have things to do right now but I will start from the beginning and you decide , Peace!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Mother Mary can be a difficult subject to discuss sometimes. I have found that sometimes the orthodox faith traditions play her up too much, while the Protestants tend to keep her at a lower level concerning the whole salvation narrative. I believe she has her just place of honor and respect in the Christian experience.

Not that difficult just attacked by the ancient serpent who is ever before any clear understanding concerning her. We will start with the beginning and all the scripture in between to the end and many will see prophets have foretold of her having the highest grace given to anyone. I will add that each denomination has something right about her all will come together. St. Paul even established that she should be greeted and given much respect for she has labored for all of us, this even after she had already been taken up. Scripture reveals that too. Peace!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Believe it or not some of it is on Wikipedia, plus the various Catholic sites. Type in "Mariology" and you will get plenty. By all means you should be reading about the Early Church Fathers. I have been a Catholic all my life and just started reading them but a few years ago myself (though I have known about them for years).

I fear we are going astray of the topic here of Sola Scriptura and probably shouldn't. (But this happens a lot) it's one word here, another there and BOOM, we're gone!

You can not stray when using scripture to prove the doctrine in denominations concerning a very important biblical figure . She is controversial and a bone of contention for many. Not me though and I am not afraid to venture in water many may consider to be dangerous waters. There is Something About Mary.

 

[Stephen61516]

You can not stray when using scripture to prove the doctrine in denominations concerning a very important biblical figure . She is controversial and a bone of contention for many. Not me though and I am not afraid to venture in water many may consider to be dangerous waters. There is Something About Mary.

I woke up after 3 or 4 hours. I'm getting old and can't seem to sleep all night long. I appreciate your willingness to help me. As I told Adonia, I have this need to truly understand how and why a person believes the way they do. I just require they reference scripture.

When I was struggling, as a teenager, to find a denomination I was frustrated that each had their own interpretations. I finally gave up, but when I returned to my quest I decided I would only accept someone's belief system if they could show me from the oldest and most reliable source. I believed and still do that authors who lived closer to the time when Jesus walked the earth are more reliable and less affected by political influences. To this day when given scripture to backup a position I go not only to my American Standard Bible (which is not like other translations but that's a long story) but to commentaries written by men with greater intellect than most other humans. Since I am Protestant those authors are coming from my point of view so I do need to get material from men like Pelagius, Arminius, Melanchthon, Wesley, and others.

Well I went on way too long. I need to try and get back to sleep. Thanks again.

 

[robycop3]

I thought you were suggesting scripture was more important that Jesus's words.

A good bit of Scripture was added from Jesus' words-but not ALL of His words, of course. He likely spoke many millions of words over 33 years. However, He chose certain ones to become Scripture.