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Some Alternate Translation Choices
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
In post #32, I posted:
In order to come to God, a person must believe God exists and that God rewards those who seek Him, Hebrews 11:6
When we pray we are to believe we have already received our request, or in other words with certainty. Mark 11:24
James 5:15 indicates prayer, "offered in faith" will be effective.
Matthew 21:22 indicates we must be "believing" to receive what we asked.
Thus the idea is not that we need to be of those who hold to a set of beliefs, but that we with certainty trust God, thus for our prayer to be effective, our prayer must be by means of unwavering faith.
James 1:6
"But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind."
Here "by faith" is indicated as the means by which the person will obtain wisdom.
"But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind."
Here "by faith" is indicated as the means by which the person will obtain wisdom.
In order to come to God, a person must believe God exists and that God rewards those who seek Him, Hebrews 11:6
When we pray we are to believe we have already received our request, or in other words with certainty. Mark 11:24
James 5:15 indicates prayer, "offered in faith" will be effective.
Matthew 21:22 indicates we must be "believing" to receive what we asked.
Thus the idea is not that we need to be of those who hold to a set of beliefs, but that we with certainty trust God, thus for our prayer to be effective, our prayer must be by means of unwavering faith.
Has anyone read, in our flawed English translations the phrase "in Him" referring to Jesus Christ our Savior? You can find the phrase (en autos) about 43 times in the NASB New Testament. Sometimes another Greek word (hos) is also translated as Him, because the who(m) refers to Christ. However, there are other prepositions (eis, epi) also rendered as "in Him" and these might refer to something other than having been placed within Christ and abiding in Him. Lets consider if a better rendering should be adopted.
Throughout the writings of John we find the phrase - believing in Him - but the preposition is "eis" meaning into or entry into the thing or person entered. Thus the concept is not being or abiding already in Him, but to gain entry into Him. The result of believing is entry into Christ, and thus entry into eternal salvation, and all the other blessings. About twenty verses could be rendered as believing into Him, rather than believing in Him. One correctly has us changing spiritual location, the other wrongly has us putting our faith and devotion upon Christ. Now the means of entry is not automatic when we put our faith upon Christ, but when and if our faith is credited as righteousness by God. So "believing into Him" refers to God crediting our faith as righteousness and then transferring the believer into Christ. Kinda a huge point hidden by poor translation. Here are the twenty verses where "in" should be rendered "into." John 3:16, 3:18, 4:39, 6:29, 6:40, 7:5, 7:31, 7:39, 7:48, 8:30, 9:36, 10:42, 11:45, 11:48, 12:37, 12:42, 12:44; Acts of the Apostles 10:43, 19:4; and Philippians 1:29.
Now about eight verses have "in Him" using the Greek preposition "epi" meaning on or upon, so the idea would be better rendered ... upon Him indicating that here the idea is indeed putting our faith and devotion upon Christ. Here are the verses where "in" should be replaced with "upon:"
Romans 4:5, 4:24, 9:33, 10:11, 15:12; 1 Timothy 1:16, Hebrews 2:13 and 1 Peter 2:6.
In looking at several versions of Romans 4:5, I see the KJV family of translations have "on" and YLT has "upon."
Throughout the writings of John we find the phrase - believing in Him - but the preposition is "eis" meaning into or entry into the thing or person entered. Thus the concept is not being or abiding already in Him, but to gain entry into Him. The result of believing is entry into Christ, and thus entry into eternal salvation, and all the other blessings. About twenty verses could be rendered as believing into Him, rather than believing in Him. One correctly has us changing spiritual location, the other wrongly has us putting our faith and devotion upon Christ. Now the means of entry is not automatic when we put our faith upon Christ, but when and if our faith is credited as righteousness by God. So "believing into Him" refers to God crediting our faith as righteousness and then transferring the believer into Christ. Kinda a huge point hidden by poor translation. Here are the twenty verses where "in" should be rendered "into." John 3:16, 3:18, 4:39, 6:29, 6:40, 7:5, 7:31, 7:39, 7:48, 8:30, 9:36, 10:42, 11:45, 11:48, 12:37, 12:42, 12:44; Acts of the Apostles 10:43, 19:4; and Philippians 1:29.
Now about eight verses have "in Him" using the Greek preposition "epi" meaning on or upon, so the idea would be better rendered ... upon Him indicating that here the idea is indeed putting our faith and devotion upon Christ. Here are the verses where "in" should be replaced with "upon:"
Romans 4:5, 4:24, 9:33, 10:11, 15:12; 1 Timothy 1:16, Hebrews 2:13 and 1 Peter 2:6.
In looking at several versions of Romans 4:5, I see the KJV family of translations have "on" and YLT has "upon."
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I found 3 more verses with "en auto" (Mark 6:14, Luke 23:11, and John 1:4).
And I found 2 more verses with "eis auto" (John 2:11 and John 3:15).
Note that whenever we find "eis auto" the context indicates action to obtain salvation. One of the difficulties with this view, is to recognize that the account was written after Christ went to the cross, even though the narrative occurred before Christ died. For example, John 2:11 says His disciples believed (in the past) into Him. But that spiritual transfer did not occur until after Christ died, rather than we they first believed, because His blood had not yet been shed.
So to correct the summary about 46 times "in Him" (en auto, en ho, en hos) appears and about 22 verses where "in Him" should be rendered "into Him (eis auto) to indicate our spiritual transfer into Christ is in view.
And I found 2 more verses with "eis auto" (John 2:11 and John 3:15).
Note that whenever we find "eis auto" the context indicates action to obtain salvation. One of the difficulties with this view, is to recognize that the account was written after Christ went to the cross, even though the narrative occurred before Christ died. For example, John 2:11 says His disciples believed (in the past) into Him. But that spiritual transfer did not occur until after Christ died, rather than we they first believed, because His blood had not yet been shed.
So to correct the summary about 46 times "in Him" (en auto, en ho, en hos) appears and about 22 verses where "in Him" should be rendered "into Him (eis auto) to indicate our spiritual transfer into Christ is in view.
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One of the difficulties of grasping the correct or least incorrect understanding of scripture is that the same word or phrase can contextually mean differing things. "In Him" (en Him) can refer to Christ's testimony or achievements on one hand, and OTOH to our spiritual location within or inside of Christ (or the body of Christ or in the kingdom of Christ) as in abiding in Christ.
Could our English translations be improved, if when contextually, the term refers to our spiritual location within Christ, altering the translation from "in" to "within or inside?" For example, if we are within Christ, we have been born anew, and therefore a new creation, and so there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, or slave or free or male or female. Redemption and all the post redemption blessings apply to us who are spiritually located within Him.
Could our English translations be improved, if when contextually, the term refers to our spiritual location within Christ, altering the translation from "in" to "within or inside?" For example, if we are within Christ, we have been born anew, and therefore a new creation, and so there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, or slave or free or male or female. Redemption and all the post redemption blessings apply to us who are spiritually located within Him.
Lets look at a few verses where "in Him" is used with differing contextual meanings.
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Contextually this refers a characteristic or provision of Christ, and does not refer to whether or not someone has been put into Him.
John 13:31 Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him;
Contextually the glorification of the Son of Man also glorifies (or accomplishes glorification) of God. Again, no implication as to anyone's spiritual location, inside or outside of Christ's kingdom.
John 18:38 Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.
Contextually "in Him" again refers to a characteristic of Christ, i.e. not guilty.
And now for a few where our spiritual location within Christ is in view:
Acts of the Apostles 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Philippians 3:9 "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Consider that these and contextually similar verses might better present the intended message if translated as "within Him."
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Contextually this refers a characteristic or provision of Christ, and does not refer to whether or not someone has been put into Him.
John 13:31 Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him;
Contextually the glorification of the Son of Man also glorifies (or accomplishes glorification) of God. Again, no implication as to anyone's spiritual location, inside or outside of Christ's kingdom.
John 18:38 Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.
Contextually "in Him" again refers to a characteristic of Christ, i.e. not guilty.
And now for a few where our spiritual location within Christ is in view:
Acts of the Apostles 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Philippians 3:9 "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Consider that these and contextually similar verses might better present the intended message if translated as "within Him."
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
A missionary once told me that the areas with the worst translated scripture are often the ones experiencing the greatest revival. I rest in this when I get anxious about scripture.
I make an effort in time and expense to have access to good scripture. And then I rest in faith, that God has this under control. When I study, I try and approach study with the heart of Mary, not Martha.
I was starting to get anxious as I read this thread and then just stopped and rested and remembered that he has this under control, even if I don't know how.
I make an effort in time and expense to have access to good scripture. And then I rest in faith, that God has this under control. When I study, I try and approach study with the heart of Mary, not Martha.
I was starting to get anxious as I read this thread and then just stopped and rested and remembered that he has this under control, even if I don't know how.
Nothing to get anxious about, God's word is well preserved and presented in translations and study material we can access. Glad we can "rest in faith" and be anxious for nothing, as we study God's word and grow in our understanding.
Where do we exist as children of God? Within Christ
Where were we when sealed? Within Christ.
Where did we receive the righteousness of God? Within Christ.
And how do the fallen get to be situated "within Him?"
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes upon Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
And what attribute or characteristic of our faith seems essential according to scripture for God to credit it as righteousness?
Our faith can not be superficial or lip service faith, or faith from which faithfulness would not flow. We must go "all in" for Christ Jesus, thus having deep commitment (a root deep and strong). We must love Christ Jesus with all our heart, all our mind and all out soul. Thus we are willing to sacrifice all of our worldly treasure (unlike soil #3 of Matthew 13) for the sake of Christ.
Behold the gospel of Christ....
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kathleenmariekg
Active Member
I am new here. Can you give me a bit more context to your project? I think some of us newbies might not fully understand.
One of the reasons I participate in this forum is to post the results of my bible study efforts. If I am way off track, usually several people post that I do not know what I am talking about. But sometimes a fellow co worker of God will point out some specific problem, which should be corrected, thus helping me grow in the correct or at least better understanding of God's word.
Over the years, I have posted dozens of word studies, such as those above, usually receiving negative feedback because they differ from the preconceptions of many believers. But I continue to post, presenting the scriptures and allowing others to consider my findings.
As far as my characterization, I am a one point Calvinist, I believe once saved, always saved, and a two point Arminian, I believe Christ died for all humankind, and our individual election for salvation results from God crediting our faith as righteousness, thus a Conditional Election. (But my view differs from the major Arminian views in that I believe our individual election occurs during our lifetime after we come to faith, whereas the major Arminian view is our individual election occurred before creation based on foreseen individuals foreseen to have faith.)
But as scripture says, test the spirits, and judge for yourself whether what I am posting actually reflects scripture, or is a corruption of scripture.
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
Thank you so much for explaining!
I have studied a little Greek and even less Hebrew. I learned enough to know how little that I know or will ever know. I knew it was not my call in life to ever take the time learn enough Greek that I would be sure that I knew more than what I was told in translation and resource books written by the men that I think of as my grandfathers: imperfect, but that love me and want what is best for me as much as humans are capable of love. I sit like a child at their feet and let them tell me the story. Sometimes I love to learn some Greek, because it is beautiful, and part of my Christian family heritage and I want to join in as much as I am able.
You are in over my head. LOL. You are like when I was 6 years old and my cousin in medical school came to visit my grandmother, and I was allowed to sit quietly and listen to them talk.
I have studied a little Greek and even less Hebrew. I learned enough to know how little that I know or will ever know. I knew it was not my call in life to ever take the time learn enough Greek that I would be sure that I knew more than what I was told in translation and resource books written by the men that I think of as my grandfathers: imperfect, but that love me and want what is best for me as much as humans are capable of love. I sit like a child at their feet and let them tell me the story. Sometimes I love to learn some Greek, because it is beautiful, and part of my Christian family heritage and I want to join in as much as I am able.
You are in over my head. LOL. You are like when I was 6 years old and my cousin in medical school came to visit my grandmother, and I was allowed to sit quietly and listen to them talk.
Yes, Bible study is a life-long endeavor, but when I learned how to study I was about 45 years old. All that I have learned (or think I have learned) has only strengthened my trust in God's word. It all fits perfectly together, and although I too cannot resolve some of the difficulties, I am glad to report many of my questions have been answered through not only my study, but also through the thoughtful commentary of many scholars, and most especially Dr. Dan B. Wallace.
I know nothing of Greek, and less than nothing of Hebrew or Aramaic, but by using study aids such as BLB on line plus an on line Reverse Interlinear, and book shelf items like an Exhaustive Concordance, Bible dictionary, English dictionary, and several commentaries, I gain insight. One of my "go to" sources is the on line NET Bible which has many footnotes providing insight on scholarly divides.
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
Another phrase indicating possibly abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ, is "in the Lord."
And although almost all of the times the phrase appears in the New Testament, the preposition is "en" we find "epi" three times so those verses (Acts of the Apostles 9:42, 11:17 and 16:31) might be better translated as "upon the Lord."
And we can also find of mix of contextual meanings, including things provided by the Lord or characteristic of the Lord, and verses indicating contextually the meaning is to be "within the Lord." For example, Romans 16:11 and 16:13.
And although almost all of the times the phrase appears in the New Testament, the preposition is "en" we find "epi" three times so those verses (Acts of the Apostles 9:42, 11:17 and 16:31) might be better translated as "upon the Lord."
And we can also find of mix of contextual meanings, including things provided by the Lord or characteristic of the Lord, and verses indicating contextually the meaning is to be "within the Lord." For example, Romans 16:11 and 16:13.
Let us take a look at Acts of the Apostles 5:14:
Here we do not find "en" in the Greek text. Also at least two different takes on what the verse is intended to say are found in our English translations. Is the idea that the ones believing the Lord were added, multitudes of both men and women or is the idea that multitudes of believers, both men and women, were added to the Lord?
And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,
Here we do not find "en" in the Greek text. Also at least two different takes on what the verse is intended to say are found in our English translations. Is the idea that the ones believing the Lord were added, multitudes of both men and women or is the idea that multitudes of believers, both men and women, were added to the Lord?
Another verse of interest is Acts of the Apostles 18:8
Here in the Greek we have "...believed the Lord..." So why was "in" added, because rather than the Corinthians hearing and believing that "Jesus was Christ" the message is generalized to belief in the Lord.
The CSB has "believed in the Lord" but the HCSB has "believed the Lord." And some in the KJV family have "believed on the Lord."
Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. (NASB)
Here in the Greek we have "...believed the Lord..." So why was "in" added, because rather than the Corinthians hearing and believing that "Jesus was Christ" the message is generalized to belief in the Lord.
The CSB has "believed in the Lord" but the HCSB has "believed the Lord." And some in the KJV family have "believed on the Lord."
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To round out the difficulty, Romans 14:14 says, NASB:
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Close to half of the translations I looked at have "by the Lord" and even the NASB is footnoted with "through the Lord." So it seems some of the translators saw the implication of instrumentality and chose "by" to indicate by means of the Lord.If we see no "implication of instrumentality" in the context of Acts 5:14, then perhaps the grammar is pointing to a locative dative, such that "added to the Lord" best captures the idea. Now the phrase "added to the Lord" would then be interpreted to mean added to the body of Christ, and therefore placed by God into Christ.
Lets look at a few more verses to see if this view holds water.
Acts of the Apostles 18:8: Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
Once again we see no implication of instrumentality, so the idea is putting their belief and trust upon the Lord. So if we reserve "upon" for the use of the preposition "epi" can we go with "on" to signify the action of people, thus translating the article (the or to the) as "on the" That appears in at least some cases the solution of the KJV translators.
Romans 14:14: I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
As noted before, here we do see the implication of instrumentality and so "by the Lord" is the indicated best translation choice in my opinion.
Romans 16:2: that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
Here if we stick with our hypothesis, we need to rework this verse. I see no implication of instrumentality, so I think the idea is to receive her worthily as saints within the Lord.