Some Comparisons of our English Translations.

[Van]

Consistency Rate of Word Choices

Ideally, each word (or more precisely each distinctive sense of a word) in the source text corresponds to a unique word in the target text, and each target word corresponds to a unique source word. While this is impossible in actual practice,as exact lexical equivalence between languages is rare, the degree to which the target text approximates this isomorphism is an indication of how consistent the translation is across the whole Bible and how much the translators have tried to express the original text literally.This is done by aggregating all the correspondences found in the reverse interlinear data and calculating the overall ratio of one-to-one mapping.

Consistency Rate of Word Choices Version Score

KJV 73.48%
NASB 70.70%
NKJV 69.52%
ESV 66.89%
NRSV 62.88%
CSB 59.25%
NET 57.06%
NIV 54.19%
NLT 47.25
With this analysis we see the scatter gun approach where consistency is increasingly given lip service, but willy nilly choices are increasingly on display. Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT. Go figure

Candor requires mention that the NIV scored about 7% better than the NASB in readability, while scoring about 14% below the NASB in literalness.

The dubious assertion of the study is it is difficult to balance those two goals. My view is that our translations fall short because of under utilization of computer optimization programs.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is a mistake to suppose that a Greek word can always be translated by one English word. Greek has a much smaller vocabulary than English, so the same Greek word often has a variety of meanings.
To take just one word, teleo is translated as 'finish' in John 19:30. 100 years ago, a liberal theologian suggested that this meant that Jesus realised that God wasn't going to rescue Him and that His whole ministry had been mistaken. However, teleo is translated as 'perform' in Luke 2:39, 'accomplish' in Luke 22:37; John 19:28, and perhaps most significantly, 'pay' in Matthew 17:24. All of these meanings are relevant to John 19:30.

Also, the noun, teleios, frequently translated 'perfect,' in the KJV, would often be better rendered as 'mature.' as in Ephesians 4:13, or 'complete,' which the KJV does not use. In Hebrews 5:14, teleios is translated as 'of full age' which is obviously better than 'perfect.' but maybe not as good as 'mature.'

 

[Van]

It is a mistake to suppose that a Greek word can always be translated by one English word. Snip

It is a mistake to read these posts addressing falsehoods. Did anyone say a Greek would can only have one meaning?

So rather than address consistent translation of the same word or phrase meaning, it is suggested the intended meaning for "teleo is best translated using several English words. Hogwash.

Consider Luke 2:39 (NASB)
And when His parents had completed everything in accordance with the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

The meanings as used in scripture fall easily into three categories. To complete or finish something, to perform or carry out something, and to pay something. Thus the verb can be translated as finish, perform or pay. This provides a consistent translation of "teleo" and avoids hiding its meaning under a word salad.

Now consider John 19:30: (NASB)
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

His mission completed, He said it is finished. Does anyone want "It is performed or It is carried out, or It is accomplished?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is a mistake to read these posts addressing falsehoods. Did anyone say a Greek would can only have one meaning?

Did anyone say that anyone said that a Greek word can only have one meaning? Nope!
Was the OP quoted in post #2? Nope!
Was Van's name even mentioned? Nope!
Does Van have hyper-sensitivity problem? Yep!

So rather than address consistent translation of the same word or phrase meaning, it is suggested the intended meaning for "teleo is best translated using several English words. Hogwash.

Not hogwash at all.

Consider Luke 2:39 (NASB)
And when His parents had completed everything in accordance with the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

There was a ritual to be performed according to the Mosaic law and sacrifices made (Luke 2::22-24). Therefore, although I don't object to the NASB translation, I think the KJV is slightly better.

The meanings as used in scripture fall easily into three categories. To complete or finish something, to perform or carry out something, and to pay something. Thus the verb can be translated as finish, perform or pay. This provides a consistent translation of "teleo" and avoids hiding its meaning under a word salad.

Now consider John 19:30: (NASB)
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

His mission completed, He said it is finished. Does anyone want "It is performed or It is carried out, or It is accomplished?

There is no doubt that 'it is accomplished' would be the better translation since it expresses the meaning somewhat better. As I pointed out in post #2, 'It is finished' could be construed as a cry of defeat rather than of victory, as in 'it's all over for me now!' If I were into paraphrases, which I'm not, 'I've done it!' would express the meaning quite well.
Also, IMO it would be good to see 'it is paid,' not as the text, but as a marginal reading, since that is within the semantic range, and our Surety had paid in full the debt His people owed.

 

[Van]

There was a ritual to be performed according to the Mosaic law and sacrifices made (Luke 2::22-24). Therefore, although I don't object to the NASB translation, I think the KJV is slightly better.

There is no doubt that 'it is accomplished' would be the better translation since it expresses the meaning somewhat better. As I pointed out in post #2, 'It is finished' could be construed as a cry of defeat rather than of victory, as in 'it's all over for me now!' If I were into paraphrases, which I'm not, 'I've done it!' would express the meaning quite well.
Also, IMO it would be good to see 'it is paid,' not as the text, but as a marginal reading, since that is within the semantic range, and our Surety had paid in full the debt His people owed.

There is a difference between saying a person is performing something, and saying they have completed the mission. It is accomplished is worse that it is finished, as it misses the intended message.

Just because "it is finished" could be misconstrued, does not alter the fact "accomplished" does misconstrue the message.

Last point, about 6 versions go with "accomplished" for Luke 22:37, but about 30 go with "finished."

No English translation I looked at (about 40 in all) had "paid" at Luke 22:37. This effort to read into the text your mistaken doctrines demonstrates why consistent choices in translation result in a better understanding of God's intended message.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Consistency Rate of Word Choices

Ideally, each word (or more precisely each distinctive sense of a word) in the source text corresponds to a unique word in the target text, and each target word corresponds to a unique source word. While this is impossible in actual practice,as exact lexical equivalence between languages is rare, the degree to which the target text approximates this isomorphism is an indication of how consistent the translation is across the whole Bible and how much the translators have tried to express the original text literally.This is done by aggregating all the correspondences found in the reverse interlinear data and calculating the overall ratio of one-to-one mapping.

Consistency Rate of Word Choices Version Score

KJV 73.48%
NASB 70.70%
NKJV 69.52%
ESV 66.89%
NRSV 62.88%
CSB 59.25%
NET 57.06%
NIV 54.19%
NLT 47.25
Overall the NIV is less consistent that the NASB, NKJV, and just about everybody else other than the NLT.

Not 'everybody else' Van. You meant many other translations. Translations aren't people.

You need to document your source, because you didn't come up with this yourself. You need to identify the author of the study.

In addition, this topic is in the wrong forum. It obviously needs to be in the Bible Translation forum.

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to the posters advocating inconsistent translation choices by way of a smoke screen of nit picks.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Van, who wrote the study/ You didn't name the source; otherwise you are showing your lack of integrity as you have in the past. What harm can befall you by being honest?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thread moved to the Bible Translation forum. Feel free to comment on the content/aim of this thread. Notified Van and left "redirect" for a week.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There is a difference between saying a person is performing something, and saying they have completed the mission.

Joseph and Mary were not completing a mission in Luke 2:23-24; they were performing a ceremony prescribed in the Mosaic law.

It is accomplished is worse that it is finished, as it misses the intended message.

No. It portrays the intended meaning more clearly. The Lord Jesus had a mission to fulfil, and there, at the ninth hour, He had achieved or accomplished it. He had also finished it, but because something can be finished either well or badly, I think accomplished is better.

Just because "it is finished" could be misconstrued, does not alter the fact "accomplished" does misconstrue the message.

No it doesn't]

Last point, about 6 versions go with "accomplished" for Luke 22:37, but about 30 go with "finished."

No English translation I looked at (about 40 in all) had "paid" at Luke 22:37.

This point doesn't appear to trouble you when you come up with your nutty mistranslations. Why do you think it should trouble me when I make a legitimate point?

This effort to read into the text your mistaken doctrines demonstrates why consistent choices in translation result in a better understanding of God's intended message.

Translating teleo as 'pay' is found not only in Matthew 17:24, but also Romans 13:6. I wonder how many people on this board were actually aware of that. Why do you want to keep them in the dark about it? I have taken the trouble to look up teleo in Liddell & Scott, the leading secular ancient Greek lexicon, and the use is quite common outside the NT, but particularly with reference to paying bills,debts or taxes. The Lord Jesus paid for us the debt of our sins. Archaeologists have found a number of shipping accounts or bills of lading from Roman times, with the word tetelestai written over them. That was the very word that our Lord used in John 20, the Perfect Passive of teleo: "It is finished; it has been paid in full." Speaking of payment in full, have you ever considered why the Lord Jesus would not drink the wine mixed with myrrh on the cross (Mark 15:23)?
'Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements [NKJV margin, 'certificate of debt'] that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.' And on it is stamped tetelestai, 'Paid in full!' So when we pray, "Forgive us our debts" (Matthew 6:12) we know that God will hear us because the Lord Jesus Christ has already settled them.
So while I am not suggesting that 'it is paid' should be in the main text of Bible translations of John 19:30, I do think it should be given in the margin to show that it is a legitimate rendering.

 

[Logos1560]

Van, who wrote the study/ You didn't name the source;

Perhaps this might possibly be the source of this study--Andi Wu and the Global Bible Initiative

http://csbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Quantitative-Translation-Evaluation-by-GBI.pdf

 

[Van]

Joseph and Mary were not completing a mission in Luke 2:23-24; they were performing a ceremony prescribed in the Mosaic law.
No. It portrays the intended meaning more clearly. The Lord Jesus had a mission to fulfil, and there, at the ninth hour, He had achieved or accomplished it. He had also finished it, but because something can be finished either well or badly, I think accomplished is better.
No it doesn't]

This point doesn't appear to trouble you when you come up with your nutty mistranslations. Why do you think it should trouble me when I make a legitimate point?

Translating teleo as 'pay' is found not only in Matthew 17:24, but also Romans 13:6. I wonder how many people on this board were actually aware of that. Why do you want to keep them in the dark about it? I have taken the trouble to look up teleo in Liddell & Scott, the leading secular ancient Greek lexicon, and the use is quite common outside the NT, but particularly with reference to paying bills,debts or taxes. The Lord Jesus paid for us the debt of our sins. Archaeologists have found a number of shipping accounts or bills of lading from Roman times, with the word tetelestai written over them. That was the very word that our Lord used in John 20, the Perfect Passive of teleo: "It is finished; it has been paid in full." Speaking of payment in full, have you ever considered why the Lord Jesus would not drink the wine mixed with myrrh on the cross (Mark 15:23)?
'Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements [NKJV margin, 'certificate of debt'] that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.' And on it is stamped tetelestai, 'Paid in full!' So when we pray, "Forgive us our debts" (Matthew 6:12) we know that God will hear us because the Lord Jesus Christ has already settled them.
So while I am not suggesting that 'it is paid' should be in the main text of Bible translations of John 19:30, I do think it should be given in the margin to show that it is a legitimate rendering.

1) Teleo as used in scripture has three meanings. Rather than being "double minded" and claim the idea is both completed and paid, we should accept that God's intended message as conveyed by Christ was "It is finished."
2) Something accomplished or performed is not the idea, but rather something completed or finished. Everything entailed had been completed rather than one of the things accomplished.

 

[McCree79]

Translating teleo as 'pay' is found not only in Matthew 17:24, but also Romans 13:6. I wonder how many people on this board were actually aware of that. Why do you want to keep them in the dark about it? I have taken the trouble to look up teleo in Liddell & Scott, the leading secular ancient Greek lexicon, and the use is quite common outside the NT, but particularly with reference to paying bills,debts or taxes. The Lord Jesus paid for us the debt of our sins. Archaeologists have found a number of shipping accounts or bills of lading from Roman times, with the word tetelestai written over them. That was the very word that our Lord used in John 20, the Perfect Passive of teleo: "It is finished; it has been paid in full."

I actually addressed this issue several weeks ago when preaching through John. You are indeed correct.

It is not just Liddell & Scott that testify to τελέω being used to pay off debt, taxes or a transaction. BDAG, EDNT, AMG, Barclay and the TDNT also speak of this.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) Teleo as used in scripture has three meanings. Rather than being "double minded" and claim the idea is both completed and paid, we should accept that God's intended message as conveyed by Christ was "It is finished."
2) Something accomplished or performed is not the idea, but rather something completed or finished. Everything entailed had been completed rather than one of the things accomplished.

This is purely your view, given without any proof whatsoever.
Why do you wish to hide from the readers of your fantasy Bible translation the fact that teleo can mean 'pay'?

 

[Van]

This is purely your view, given without any proof whatsoever.
Why do you wish to hide from the readers of your fantasy Bible translation the fact that teleo can mean 'pay'?

1) Did I hide that fact "teleo" can mean pay? Nope.

From post #3: "The meanings as used in scripture fall easily into three categories. To complete or finish something, to perform or carry out something, and to pay something.

2) The view that "finished" is the intended meaning is held by the vast majority of published English version translation teams.

 

[Dr. Bob]

You need to document your source . . . You need to identify the author of the study.

I am still waiting for "source" material as well. This is not a "minor" matter in many questions on (no implication of impropriety, but served too long as a college/grad school prof refereeing debates) our translation/vocab choices and what "weight" scholarship gives.

 

[JesusFan]

It is a mistake to suppose that a Greek word can always be translated by one English word. Greek has a much smaller vocabulary than English, so the same Greek word often has a variety of meanings.
To take just one word, teleo is translated as 'finish' in John 19:30. 100 years ago, a liberal theologian suggested that this meant that Jesus realised that God wasn't going to rescue Him and that His whole ministry had been mistaken. However, teleo is translated as 'perform' in Luke 2:39, 'accomplish' in Luke 22:37; John 19:28, and perhaps most significantly, 'pay' in Matthew 17:24. All of these meanings are relevant to John 19:30.

Also, the noun, teleios, frequently translated 'perfect,' in the KJV, would often be better rendered as 'mature.' as in Ephesians 4:13, or 'complete,' which the KJV does not use. In Hebrews 5:14, teleios is translated as 'of full age' which is obviously better than 'perfect.' but maybe not as good as 'mature.'

What are the qualifications of van again to be able to render decisions on textual criticism and rendering choices?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What are the qualifications of van again to be able to render decisions on textual criticism and rendering choices?

Good question. No doubt he'll tell us shortly.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) Did I hide that fact "teleo" can mean pay? Nope.


2) The view that "finished" is the intended meaning is held by the vast majority of published English version translation teams.

Did I say that you hid the fact that teleo can mean 'pay'? Nope.
What I accused you of was wishing to hide it from others in your fantasy translation.

 

[Van]

Did I say that you hid the fact that teleo can mean 'pay'? Nope.
What I accused you of was wishing to hide it from others in your fantasy translation.

LOL, the fact is I did not hide that one of the meanings of the word is "pay," but posted it, so I was not wishing, as your mind reading claims.