Doubting Thomas
Active Member
If the One that Mary bore in her womb for nine months was NOT God, then who or what was he in your opinion?
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Some quotes for Catholics to ponder...
- Thread starter JohnDeereFan
- Start date
As I've explained to you several times now, Jesus is God. However, God the Father is also God and so is God the Holy Spirit.
Unless you're prepared to say that Mary is the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, as well as God the Son, then what you're talking about is polytheism.
Hmmm....you really don't understand this Trinity thing, do you? Theotokos does not = Mary being the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but it does = Mary being bearer-in-her-womb of and the-woman-who-gave-birth-to God the Son. Clear enough for you?
Well, after all these years of ministry and all of the time I spent sitting in class learning about it, I should hope so. But if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to tell me what I've said regarding the Trinity that's wrong.
Oh, I know what Theotokos means. But I'm not the one who keeps calling Mary the mother of God. Whether you realize it or not, and whether you like it or not, words mean things. So when you call Mary the "Mother of God", that has connotations far beyond merely saying that Mary bore God in her womb.
In the year 431, St. Cyril of Alexandria led a delegation of Egyptian bishops to the Council of Ephesus. Bishop John of Antioch brought a contingent of bishops from Syria. Pope Celestine I sent three legates. St. Augustine was invited but died before the council opened. The most famous decision of that council was to declare that Mary was the 'Mother of God', Theotokos, or "God-bearer".
The reason they affirmed the ancient faith of the Church about Mary was because the patriarch of Constantinople, Nestorius was teaching that the child born of Mary was only human. He argued that only after the birth, that the Word of God was united with the human Jesus. Mary could not be God's mother. The council rejected this teaching and asserted that the Son of God was united to the humanity of Jesus from the beginning.
This is why we do not hesitate to call the Holy Virgin: Mother of God. She was the mother of the whole Jesus Christ, divine (God) and human.
The council was primarily making a faith statement about Jesus. I don't understand how any Baptist could call this teaching heresy.
It was the polytheism comment to which I referred. The Trinity is not polytheism. And, as I've said ad nauseam here and on threads passim, theotokos does not equal 'Mother of God'; what it does mean is that Mary bore a human Who was also 100% God, in Whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells (per Col 2:9).
[reply to JDF]
[reply to JDF]
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Thats the problem with translations. Theotokos means God bearer and is only a comment about the nature of Jesus Christ not so much about Mary positionally in relation to God. Ie Mary did not create God. Jesus on the other hand is the very God that created the universe and Mary. The english translation comes from the Greek translation into Latin Mater Dei or Mother of God. That is the history of the term. However, and this is key, how many marginal catholics understand this? How many black hair laced hispanic grandmothers praying before the statue of mary understand this?
A catholic once told me (not my family they are too educated to make this comment partly due to my constant challenges to them) that he knew a recently departed friend was ok because they "felt Mother Mary taking" the person "to purgatory". Hmmmm. I think there is a problem with your Catachumins. Marian veneration a little out of control?
Indeed; very poor catechesis.
My Baptist friend who agrees with me on this dogma made this logic: "Anyone with common sense knows that Jesus was the God-man. Who is the mother of this God-man but Mary? Would Baptists be more relaxed on this dogma if we call Mary the mother of God-man?" We see how any logical person would not disagree on this dogma. Let's examine this logic. Mary is the Mother of God-man. Take off the word God, and we would have Mother of Man. Is it correct to say this? Of course it is. How about we take off the word man instead? Maybe my friend is right. She may be wrong though, because many anti-Catholics would just love to debate on this dogma.
Guess these early Christians didn't understand the 'connotations far beyond':
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit. He was born and baptized so that by His submission He might purify the water." (Ignatius of Antioch, Letters to the Ephesians 18,2)
"The Virgin Mary being obedient to His word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5,19,1)
"This Virgin became a Mother while preserving her virginity; And though still a Virgin she carried a Child in her womb; And the handmaid and work of His wisdom became the MOTHER OF GOD." (St. Ephraim, Songs of Praise 1,20)
"After this, we acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; who bore a body not in appearance but in truth, derived from the MOTHER OF GOD." (Alexander of Alexandria Letters, 12)
"Accordingly, the Son of God became Son of Man, so that the sons of man, that is, of Adam, might become sons of God. The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly and eternally, is He that is born in time here below, of the Virgin Mary, the MOTHER OF GOD" (The "great" Athanasius, Incarnation of the Word of God, 8)
"Many, My beloved, are the true witnesses to Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven to His Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary. The Virgin MOTHER OF GOD bears witness" (The "great" Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 10,19)
"If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD, he is at odds with the Godhead." (Gregory of Nazianz, Letters 101)
" who took on the human flesh and soul; being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, He reshaped man to perfection in Himself, from Mary the MOTHER OF GOD through the Holy Spirit." (Epiphanius of Salamis, The Man Well-Anchored 75)
"When, therefore, they ask, "Is Mary Mother of Man or Mother of God?" we answer "BOTH!" Mother of Man because it was a Man who was in the womb of Mary and who came forth from there; and MOTHER OF GOD, because God was in the Man who was born" (Theodore of Mopsuestia, The Incarnation 15)
This shows you why there is all the more reason to stay away from the writings of the ECF. There are many doctrines where they led people astray from the truth. Don't you wonder when and where cults come from?
That's right, DHK, I'm sure it is much better to pay attention to the writings of some Baptist theologian 2,000 years down the road than to pay attention to people who sat at the feet of the Apostles and would have heard the Apostles explanations of their own teachings. Ignatius of Antioch probably didn't have a clue, right?
Ignatius simply quoted the Bible, and his quote does not support theotokos at all. You lose on that one.
As for the others, go back to your books. How many of them were actually taught by the Apostles. Can you prove that they were? Yet, I know that I am taught by the Holy Spirit of God. To be taught by the Holy Spirit of God is far better than to be taught by man's tradition.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Lori...
I just went over there and when I did a search his posts came right up.
You didnt type in his name properly. Look at the quote. You didnt capitolise the "D" in deere.
I just went over there and when I did a search his posts came right up.
You didnt type in his name properly. Look at the quote. You didnt capitolise the "D" in deere.
Someone else sent me that information a while back. I think I also left the 'e' off of Deer, but thanks anyway.
Alive in Christ
New Member
JohnDeereFan...
And also the Catholic nonsense about Mary being worthy of worship as a Goddess..and worshipped thusly.
And also the Catholic nonsense about Mary being worthy of worship as a Goddess..and worshipped thusly.
1 Corinthians 2:11-13 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man (unsaved) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
lori4dogs said:
Yes, there are heretics among Baptists, as well.
Not Baptists who know the word of God.
Like begets like. That's why Mary cannot be the mother of God. She is neither God nor a god. Therefore, she does not have godhood to pass on.
How can she be the mother of "God-man" when she is not a god? Christ is God because He is God, not because Mary gave birth to Him. Mary is human. Therefore, operating on the Biblical principle that each creature reproduces after its own kind, Mary is the mother of Christ's humanity, not His deity.