Son of God

[timtofly]

Once again a deflection question, rather than taking a position!!

No of course I do not say the book was sealed (meaning no names were added subsequently) at the time when Christ died on the cross. That question just puts false doctrine into my mouth. Can you image if posters on this board had the integrity to actually address the posted views of others?

Scripture says names were not written (and others presumably were written) "from the foundation of the world" meaning after creation. Does that say no names were added after Christ died? Nope. So why suggest such a fallacy? To provide a smokescreen of nonsense to avoid biblical truth?

Next, did I claim this: "You claim the foundation was 2,000 years ago." No, of course not. The bible, actually the very words of Christ, indicate the period of the Old Testament is included in the period of "from the foundation of the world." So once again, rather than addressing what I actually said, you post non-stop falsehoods.

Next, you put this false doctrine into my mouth: "If you say only a few redeemed names were in the book and no names could ever be removed nor added, I did say Jesus said He would never remove any name, but I also said names were written since creation. The verses for that are Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

Next, did I say "humans decide when their name is placed in the book?" Nope, so yet another outrageous falsehood, posted with impunity by this fount of falsehoods. God decides whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I never said nor suggested the Lamb's book of life was sealed. Please go back and delete all these outrageous falsehood from your posts.

Final point, timtofly said, "give me one verse "that states names cannot be removed." Here it is:

Rev 3:5
‘The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.​

That verse is not the point: they cannot be removed. That verse just states Jesus will not remove them. Can Jesus remove a name or not? Are you saying many names were never even written?


Because if names are never written that means you think like a Calvinist that God only wrote some names.


The book is sealed. Revelation 5:1-7

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

You interpret that as constantly being written to. I interpret that as written before creation and sealed. It was never edited nor written in since before humans were created. It is still sealed until the Second Coming. The Second Coming is the opening of the 6th Seal.

Moses knew his name could not be removed until the book was opened. All I can think is that Armenians say names are constantly being written to this book, and that is an erroneous interpretation. Names will be removed starting at the 1st Trumpet all the way up until the GWT. Then all those who have been in sheol for near 7,000 years will be removed. Unless they remain and granted that blessed first resurrection and given eternal life. Revelation 4:5-6

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,"

Even after 1,000 years it is a first resurrection, and those who would live again remain in the Lamb's book of life, and are not cast into the LOF. The Lamb's book of life was sealed during all of the 6,000 years of Adam's punishment. No one could be removed until the 7th Seal was removed. Those in sheol will be removed at the GWT. Because they have to wait as dead just like those verses claim.

The point is all names were written of every one ever conceived in the womb. Then the book was sealed. No name was ever added after the book was sealed. After the 1st Trumpet, names start dropping out like flies. The goats, the tares, then all who receive the mark. God is removing them and declaring He never knew them.

 

[Van]

That verse is not the point: they cannot be removed. That verse just states Jesus will not remove them. Can Jesus remove a name or not? Are you saying many names were never even written?

Because if names are never written that means you think like a Calvinist that God only wrote some names.

The book is sealed. Revelation 5:1-7

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

You interpret that as constantly being written to. I interpret that as written before creation and sealed. SNIP

Yes, I am saying only those that God places within Christ's spiritual body have their names written at that time in the Lamb's book of life. Thus no names were written before creation as clearly taught by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. And do you claim not to know the section of Revelation was written not for today, but to describe conditions at the end of the age? So in summary, your passage does not say when that scroll was sealed, and so you add to scripture with the claim it was sealed before the end of the age.

No Jesus cannot remove a name from His book of life because He said He would not remove any name.

No, once again you imply God wrote names at some point, rather than continually during our age of grace as people are placed within Christ.

 

[timtofly]

Yes, I am saying only those that God places within Christ's spiritual body have their names written at that time in the Lamb's book of life. Thus no names were written before creation as clearly taught by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. And do you claim not to know the section of Revelation was written not for today, but to describe conditions at the end of the age? So in summary, your passage does not say when that scroll was sealed, and so you add to scripture with the claim it was sealed before the end of the age.

No Jesus cannot remove a name from His book of life because He said He would not remove any name.

No, once again you imply God wrote names at some point, rather than continually during our age of grace as people are placed within Christ.

Then tell me how the OT humans are not relative to this Lamb's book of life?

And you completely ignore this Scripture:

Exodus 32:31-33

"And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

 

[37818]

Thus no names were written before creation as clearly taught by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.

Not written does not mean never had been written. Exodus 32:32-33, Psalms 69:27-28, Revelation 3:5, Mark 10:14-15, Revelation 20:15. Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. . . ."

 

[Van]

Then tell me how the OT humans are not relative to this Lamb's book of life?

And you completely ignore this Scripture:

Did you address any of your false claims and say "oops?" Nope Instead you ask yet another change the subject question.

Let me rewrite your question, as your question if obscure.

How were the OT saints names entered into the Lamb's book of life, if Christ had not died as their sin offering yet? Before Christ led them out of Abraham's bosom and into the kingdom of Heaven, they put their faith specifically in Christ, and their names were then entered into the Lamb's book of life. Thus they were "enrolled in the general assembly" (the body of Christ).

I am saying only those that God places within Christ's spiritual body have their names written at that time in the Lamb's book of life. Thus no names were written before creation as clearly taught by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. And do you claim not to know the section of Revelation was written not for today, but to describe conditions at the end of the age? So in summary, your passage does not say when that scroll was sealed, and so you add to scripture with the claim it was sealed before the end of the age.

No Jesus cannot remove a name from His book of life because He said He would not remove any name.

No, once again you imply God wrote names at some point, rather than continually during our age of grace as people are placed within Christ.

 

[Van]

Not written does not mean never had been written. Exodus 32:32-33, Psalms 69:27-28, Revelation 3:5, Mark 10:14-15, Revelation 20:15. Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. . . ."

Give me a break. We are to believe what is written in God's word, not claim anything imaginable not precluded by God's word is valid.

I have addressed Ephesians 1:4, and you continue to ignore it. Disgusting.

 

[37818]

I have addressed Ephesians 1:4, and you continue to ignore it. Disgusting.

I have not read it or I do not recall your argument. You have never made your argument to me.

 

[timtofly]

Did you address any of your false claims and say "oops?" Nope Instead you ask yet another change the subject question.

Let me rewrite your question, as your question if obscure.

How were the OT saints names entered into the Lamb's book of life, if Christ had not died as their sin offering yet? Before Christ led them out of Abraham's bosom and into the kingdom of Heaven, they put their faith specifically in Christ, and their names were then entered into the Lamb's book of life. Thus they were "enrolled in the general assembly" (the body of Christ).

I am saying only those that God places within Christ's spiritual body have their names written at that time in the Lamb's book of life. Thus no names were written before creation as clearly taught by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. And do you claim not to know the section of Revelation was written not for today, but to describe conditions at the end of the age? So in summary, your passage does not say when that scroll was sealed, and so you add to scripture with the claim it was sealed before the end of the age.

No Jesus cannot remove a name from His book of life because He said He would not remove any name.

No, once again you imply God wrote names at some point, rather than continually during our age of grace as people are placed within Christ.

So then you can completely ignore the fact Moses knew about the book, and the Lord said He would remove all those names from the Lamb's book of life, who have sinned against the Lord.

That is between you and God now. Your continual attacks on my post are meaningless.

You do not claim there was one book in the OT and another in the NT. You claim only one book that has never been sealed. You do not recognize that the 7 seals will open the Lamb's book of life. No names have been added nor removed, from before Moses' time. You accuse me of stating points I have never stated.

This generation is the end of the age. The Second Coming could happen at any moment. God's sovereign Grace has allowed the church to continue bringing in a bountiful harvest some where on earth. Or more names would soon be removed once that 7th Seal is opened.

 

[Van]

So then you can completely ignore the fact Moses knew about the book, and the Lord said He would remove all those names from the Lamb's book of life, who have sinned against the Lord.

That is between you and God now. Your continual attacks on my post are meaningless.

You do not claim there was one book in the OT and another in the NT. You claim only one book that has never been sealed. You do not recognize that the 7 seals will open the Lamb's book of life. No names have been added nor removed, from before Moses' time. You accuse me of stating points I have never stated.

This generation is the end of the age. The Second Coming could happen at any moment. God's sovereign Grace has allowed the church to continue bringing in a bountiful harvest some where on earth. Or more names would soon be removed once that 7th Seal is opened.

Your claim Moses knew about the Lamb's book of Life is nonsense.

Did I claim there is only one "Lamb's book of life?" Yes.

Did I claim there is only one document referred to in scripture as "the book of life?" Nope

Folks, pay no attention to the non-stop false claims of this poster.

How were the OT saints names entered into the Lamb's book of life, if Christ had not died as their sin offering yet? Before Christ led them out of Abraham's bosom and into the kingdom of Heaven, they put their faith specifically in Christ, and their names were then entered into the Lamb's book of life. Thus they were "enrolled in the general assembly" (the body of Christ). Hebrews 12:23.

I am saying only those that God places within Christ's spiritual body have their names written at that time in the Lamb's book of life. Thus no names were written before creation as clearly taught by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. And do you claim not to know the section of Revelation was written not for today, but to describe conditions at the end of the age? So in summary, your passage does not say when that scroll was sealed, and so you add to scripture with the claim it was sealed before the end of the age.

No Jesus cannot remove a name from His book of life because He said He would not remove any name.

No, once again you imply God wrote names at some point, rather than continually during our age of grace as people are placed within Christ.

 

[Aaron]

This phrase appears about 42 times in the New Testament, preeminently as describing Jesus. The meaning is Jesus is God's Son. Now the word translated as "son" usually refers to a biological offspring, thus a "son" would be thought of as being fathered or created by another. However, we know that Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, was termed "Son" as being forever and ever, thus eternal, thus never created.

Some, in my opinion mistakenly, think Logos became a "son" when Logos became "flesh" (God incarnate) but the majority view is that Logos functioned in His subordinate role, one who fulfills the Father's purpose, eternally.

However, if we take an alternate view, then the Greek word translated "son" does not always refer to something fathered or originated, but rather as someone who follows and obeys another. Thus when we see "Son of God" and think "God's Son, as if God originated Him, we are on the wrong track. Rather the idea is actually God's emissary. "An emissary is often a person who is sent somewhere in order to act as a representative."

Now is it not also true that Mary, while a virgin conceived Jesus? Of course it is true! Since she was a virgin, and therefore had never been "penetrated" (to use a euphemism) either her egg was supernaturally fertilized or God created Jesus within her womb ex nilo. Scripture can support either view, but since He is referred to as being a blood line descendant of David, through Mary, I lean toward the supernaturally fertilized egg possibility.

But to repeat, I do not think that is what is meant by the usage of "Son of God" phrase, but rather the phrase refers to His mission on earth.

Let us consider one of the early uses of the phrase, Matthew 4:6-7. Here Satan says (paraphrasing) "if you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, because God's word says His angels will catch you." But Jesus answers by citing God's word not to test God, thus acting as God's emissary.

I agree, mostly. But He is not only the Son, but the only begotten son. So the Son does proceed from the Father. And that's where the discussion stops. God is not a man, so we need to stop applying our carnal understandings to the dynamic here.

 

[Van]

I agree, mostly. But He is not only the Son, but the only begotten son. So the Son does proceed from the Father. And that's where the discussion stops. God is not a man, so we need to stop applying our carnal understandings to the dynamic here.

Yes, begotten is a mistranslation of monogenes which means one of a kind. And so we need to stop applying dark ages theology to God's inspired word.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, begotten is a mistranslation of monogenes which means one of a kind. And so we need to stop applying dark ages theology to God's inspired word.

What does it mean to be a Father?

 

[Van]

What does it mean to be a Father?

What do you think it means? Why are you willing to ask but not answer questions? I have posted a whole thread on Father, "Born or Fathered!?

 

[timtofly]

Your claim Moses knew about the Lamb's book of Life is nonsense.

Your claim about Exodus 32:31-33 is nonsense.

The Lamb's book of life is currently sealed. You refuse to make a stand on when it was sealed. God was the Lamb slain before creation. Time is not a factor to God, yet you define God in a limited way, as one day in 30AD upon a Cross as Jesus Christ. Thus your refusal to accept when the Lamb's book of life was sealed.

 

[Aaron]

What do you think it means? Why are you willing to ask but not answer questions? I have posted a whole thread on Father, "Born or Fathered!?

It means Christ's Sonship is not a doctrine extracted merely from some Greek word. It is also in the title of the First Person in the Trinity.

Christ is the Son of Someone, meaning His essence has a source (not a beginning), and that Someone is the Father.

 

[Van]

Your claim about Exodus 32:31-33 is nonsense.

The Lamb's book of life is currently sealed. You refuse to make a stand on when it was sealed. God was the Lamb slain before creation. Time is not a factor to God, yet you define God in a limited way, as one day in 30AD upon a Cross as Jesus Christ. Thus your refusal to accept when the Lamb's book of life was sealed.

Repeating falsehoods does not make them true.
Did I not indicate the Lamb's book of life was not sealed during the age of grace.?
No verse even suggests the Lamb was slain before about 2000 years ago. Reliance on mistranslation is revolting.
No verse says time (whether the spiritual time of the spiritual realm, or physical time of the physical realm) is not a factor for God.
You refuse to accept you have been sold a fiction not found in scripture.

 

[Van]

It means Christ's Sonship is not a doctrine extracted merely from some Greek word. It is also in the title of the First Person in the Trinity.

Christ is the Son of Someone, meaning His essence has a source (not a beginning), and that Someone is the Father.

Pure falsehood from A to Z. Begotten is a mistranslation of "monogenes" which means one of a kind. And so we need to stop applying dark ages theology to God's inspired word.

 

[Aaron]

Pure falsehood from A to Z. Begotten is a mistranslation of "monogenes" which means one of a kind. And so we need to stop applying dark ages theology to God's inspired word.

It's not a mistranslation, but we can say "only Son" if you wish. It doesn't change the meaning at all. We know that the Sonship of Christ is distinct from the sonship of Adam, and of the angels, if indeed the term 'sons of God' refers to angels in some places.

He is the only Son of the Father.

And He said elsewhere, "I proceeded forth and came from God," John 8:42 , meaning begotten, not sent. His being sent is described in the next phrase.

Anyway your limiting His Sonship to only the sense of an emissary, is ... how did you say it? ... Ah, yes. Pure falsehood from A to Z.

 

[Aaron]

From whence did Logos receive his flesh? Was it from the seed of the woman?

Mitochondrial DNA – Your Mom’s Story | DNAeXplained – Genetic Genealogy (dna-explained.com)

Is that article relative to Jesus of Nazareth?

Exactly how was, "1:14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν - And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us," the seed of David and the seed of Abraham? When did the Logos become their seed? Or was Jesus of Nazareth the seed of David and Abraham?

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:31.32

Is that speaking of the Logos made flesh, the Christ, the Son of the Living God?



3:14 וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל־מֹשֶׁה אֶֽהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶֽהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶֽהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם׃

Just a statement? Maybe statement and prophecy? Exactly how does God become the seed of David and Abraham or does he?

He is the Son of David only by His human nature, by which we know Him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16

 

[37818]

He is the only Son of the Father.

Job 38:1-7, ". . . Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, . . . Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. . . . all the sons of God shouted for joy? . . ."