Sorrow to Repentance

[skypair]

It contradicts Bob's OP.
The passage quoted in 2Cor.7:9ff has nothing to do with salvation. It was written to believers.
The OP, was talking about salvation. Bob was relating his own salvation experience. He said that when he was saved he felt sorry for his sins. Where does the Bible say that one has to be sorry for their sins in order to be saved? It doesn't.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Amen, DHK!! 2Cor 7:9-11 is the most important passage of any regarding CHRISTIAN sorrow and repentance. If you ever want to know how God can lead you out of sin you have confessed and repented of countless times, study 2Cor 7:9-11!!

As to salvation -- yeah, if we are old enough, there are innumerable sins we are sorry for. But many come to salvation as children only understanding their potential for sin and their need of Christ.

Good post, DHK!

skypair

 

[skypair]

How do you explain this verse?

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

It speaks of salvation from the "sin at hand" -- the one you are a slave to IMO.

skypair

 

[skypair]

DHK, you may be right, but IMO it seems as if Paul is speaking of eternal salvation because of the last part of the verse:

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

It seems to me that Paul is comparing Godly sorrow-life

to worldly sorrow-death

I'm not saying that he wasn't speaking to Christians, but rather making a point about what true repentance is and that it comes from sorrow and leads to salvation. But just a general observation and not saying that those people weren't saved.

INDEED IT IS!! Think about it, Amy. Sin unto death. Many Christians are in the "death throws" of sin! They can't quit smoking or gluttony or being a "couch potato ... you name it! Early death is the end of it!

In the case at hand, the Corinthians had turned their fellow believer "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the soul might be saved in the day of Christ!" That man was near to being taken from this earth, IMO! Thankfully, he did not have only "worldly sorrow!"

You as a Christian need to speak to those in such circumstances lovingly, of course. Teach them the "program" of 2Cor 7. DHK is "spot on" in his analysis of the passage.

skypair

 

[Joe]

I am glad I got over the false teaching of feeling like I must feel sorrow for committing certain sins in order to be saved. For certain reasons, not all are able to feel sorrow for certain sins, so why not just accept it.
It's ok not to feel remorse or sorrow for any sin. We can ask forgiveness, seek him and repent anyway. Satan's desire is for us to measure our salvation or level of repentance by "the way we feel" knowing our emotions flexuate. I have never heard of any biblical foundation for sorrow.



Joe

 

[DHK]

I am glad I got over the false teaching of feeling like I must feel sorrow for committing certain sins in order to be saved. For certain reasons, not all are able to feel sorrow for certain sins, so why not just accept it.
It's ok not to feel remorse or sorrow for any sin. We can ask forgiveness, seek him and repent anyway. Satan's desire is for us to measure our salvation or level of repentance by "the way we feel" knowing our emotions flexuate. I have never heard of any biblical foundation for sorrow.
Joe

Amen Joe!
This world is caught up in too much emotionalism. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. The Bible states that we must put our faith in Him to be saved. Faith has an object. The object of our faith is Christ.
Emotions are part and parcel of every person, both saved and unsaved alike. Many false decisions have been made on the basis of how much they have wept and cried. But sorrow is not the basis of our salvation; faith in Christ is.
Sorrow, Joy, Peace, Love, etc. are all extra added bonuses if that is what one feels when they are saved. It is good to feel those emotons, but they don't happen to everyone. Everyone is different. Many are emotonal; many aren't. We all have a different make-up.

 

[Mr.M]

Can you expound on this more? I am having trouble digesting this statement. I'm not saying it's wrong, it just isn't clicking.

Emotions are not thought or reason, they are stimulators or, reactors. It might be that because of a certain thought you have you experience an emotion; that is a reactor or a stimulator. It follows thought. When you have emotions or feelings attempting to initiate thought, regulate thought or preceding thought you have erratic and irrational behavior and thought.

Specifically why we are transformed by the renewing of our mind and not our emotions.

Allow me to add something. While sorrow is often accompanied by negative emotions/feelings, SORROW itself is not an emotion or feeling. Sorrow is a mental determination or mental attitude. One determines whether they are sorrowful through thought. Once they conclude this then obviously it is common to experience negative emotions. However, negative emotions are NOT the proper gauge for determining sorrowfulness. Many people are sorrowful without any measurable negative emotional impact. Even when the Bible refers to our crying or weeping or having tears it refers to them because of what they represent which is some mental attitude. But because of the common emotional reaction of crying, weeping or having tears regarding some grave or serious matter such references are made which we recognize. The problem comes when people conclude "ah, so it is tears, crying, weeping that is wanted and needed". NO! It is what generally causes them, which is some kind of thought, some mental attitude. But because we do cry often but NOT ALWAYS this is used to represent serious and grave thought.

 

[npetreley]

I am glad I got over the false teaching of feeling like I must feel sorrow for committing certain sins in order to be saved. For certain reasons, not all are able to feel sorrow for certain sins, so why not just accept it.

Just for the record: When I said I suspect sorrow and repentance cannot be separated, I wasn't talking about degrees of sadness, nor was I talking about salvation by emotional sorrow. If I recognize that I've done something wrong and I repent, I'm sorry I did it. If I wasn't sorry and I thought I had a good reason to do it, I wouldn't repent.

Having said that, sometimes the repentance is accompanied by deep emotional sorrow, and sometimes it isn't. I don't measure "sorrow" by how sad I feel. It's more of an attitude.

 

[Joe]

Just for the record: When I said I suspect sorrow and repentance cannot be separated, I wasn't talking about degrees of sadness, nor was I talking about salvation by emotional sorrow. If I recognize that I've done something wrong and I repent, I'm sorry I did it. If I wasn't sorry and I thought I had a good reason to do it, I wouldn't repent.

Having said that, sometimes the repentance is accompanied by deep emotional sorrow, and sometimes it isn't. I don't measure "sorrow" by how sad I feel. It's more of an attitude.

Gotcha :thumbs:


Joe

 

[DHK]

Allow me to add something. While sorrow is often accompanied by negative emotions/feelings, SORROW itself is not an emotion or feeling. Sorrow is a mental determination or mental attitude.

Not so:

loo'-pay
apparently a primary word; sadness:--grief, grievous, + grudgingly, heaviness, sorrow.

All of these adjectives are descriptions of an emotion that is expressed when one is sad or sorrowful. Sorrow is definitely an emotion. One can be in a condition of sorrow, despair, anger, etc. But they are all emotions. If your "attitude" is an angry attitude, you have a problem. But your problem is your emotion of anger. It is still an emotion neverthess. We are an emotional people.

Was Nehemiah emotional:
Nehemiah 13:25 And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.

How about Mordecai?
Esther 4:1 When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry;
--Do loud and bitter cries bring repentance?
--Does the plucking off of the hairs of sinful people bring repentance?

In both cases they were emotional.
Sorrow (emotion) doesn't save.
The goodness of God leads one to repentance.
Jesus saves. Faith in Christ saves.

 

[LeBuick]

Emotions are not thought or reason, they are stimulators or, reactors. It might be that because of a certain thought you have you experience an emotion; that is a reactor or a stimulator. It follows thought. When you have emotions or feelings attempting to initiate thought, regulate thought or preceding thought you have erratic and irrational behavior and thought..

Now I know my question, can't emotion also be a reaction to a thought or reason? Don't thought and reason demand a response of some sort (no specific response but one just the same)?

I read back over this thread and still agree one does not have to exibit sorrow to be saved. However, there are plenty of emotional responses that will accompany salvation. Initially joy, confusion toward what it means etc...

This brings us specifically to repentance, if I came to the conclusion I was a bad father my response would be to feel bad. It is not necessary or mandatory for me to feel bad but I would suspect my reaction would be common. I don't imagine a normal person would rejoice to learn they were a lousy father but I can see how some would have no reaction at all (at least on the outside).

Is this the light you are equating repentance and sorrow?

 

[TCGreek]

1. After the preaching of the gospel on Pentecost, the Scripture says that some of the hearers were "cut to the heart" and then asked "What must we do?" (Acts 2:36, 37).

2. Were emotions involved here? Was this a case of salvation from sin?

 

[Amy.G]

1. After the preaching of the gospel on Pentecost, the Scripture says that some of the hearers were "cut to the heart" and then asked "What must we do?" (Acts 2:36, 37).

2. Were emotions involved here? Was this a case of salvation from sin?

I believe sorrow is a reaction to the heart felt realization that we have sinned against God, or "cut to the heart". If you've ever hurt someone's feelings, don't you also feel sorrow? I do. Cut to the heart is a perfect way to express it. I feel like I've been stabbed in the heart.

We are not saved by emotions to be sure, but emotions are a response to what God has done in our hearts. However, if sorrow is not followed by an action of repentance then I would say it's only a temporary feeling based on the circumstances at the moment and not true sorrow, or Godly sorrow as the Bible says. Wordly sorrow is just the opposite, a temporary feeling of sadness but is not followed up by the action of repentance, hence not real sorrow.

 

[DHK]

1. After the preaching of the gospel on Pentecost, the Scripture says that some of the hearers were "cut to the heart" and then asked "What must we do?" (Acts 2:36, 37).

2. Were emotions involved here? Was this a case of salvation from sin?

Yes they were. And that is not a bad thing. Sorrow is good. But the basic question is: "Is it necessary to have sorrow in order to be saved?" And I believe the answer to that is an unequivocal no. Let's take an example from Scripture.

Acts 16:27-31 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Was there any sorrow here on the part of the jailor. There is nothing in the text that would lead us to believe so. What he witnessed was a miracle. It made him fear both for his life, and it made him fear the God that Paul and Silas worshiped. He knew instinctively that he was in the presence of a man whose God was the Creator and the Savior of all mankind. Without sorrow, he realized his sinful condition and need of salvation and immediately wanted to be saved. Perhaps the singing and praising of God by Paul and Silas had something to do with the preparation of his heart also. But I don't read anything about sorrow in this account. There was a frightened man knowing that he needed to be saved. And he got saved very quickly!

 

[Mr.M]

Now I know my question, can't emotion also be a reaction to a thought or reason? Don't thought and reason demand a response of some sort (no specific response but one just the same)?

I read back over this thread and still agree one does not have to exibit sorrow to be saved. However, there are plenty of emotional responses that will accompany salvation. Initially joy, confusion toward what it means etc...

This brings us specifically to repentance, if I came to the conclusion I was a bad father my response would be to feel bad. It is not necessary or mandatory for me to feel bad but I would suspect my reaction would be common. I don't imagine a normal person would rejoice to learn they were a lousy father but I can see how some would have no reaction at all (at least on the outside).

Is this the light you are equating repentance and sorrow?

In the most simple terms I can use, repentance or sorrow are mental attitudes. What emotions follow are reactors or stimulators, whether they are discernibly present or not. The emotions or feelings are NOT the repentance or sorrow. The repentance or sorrow occurs through thought.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes they were. And that is not a bad thing. Sorrow is good. But the basic question is: "Is it necessary to have sorrow in order to be saved?" And I believe the answer to that is an unequivocal no.

1. I agree with your statement, but I cannot help noticing that with the conviction of the Spirit as a prerequisite to salvation, there must be a recognition of need for the Savior.

2. This recognition of a need for the Savior involves emotions at some level, but not necessarily a bringing to tears or some dramatic display of emotions.

 

[LeBuick]

In the most simple terms I can use, repentance or sorrow are mental attitudes. What emotions follow are reactors or stimulators, whether they are discernibly present or not. The emotions or feelings are NOT the repentance or sorrow. The repentance or sorrow occurs through thought.

I guess we need a translator but I didn't follow you??? The part I bolded, are you saying sorrow is not an emotion?

 

[LeBuick]

Yes they were. And that is not a bad thing. Sorrow is good. But the basic question is: "Is it necessary to have sorrow in order to be saved?" And I believe the answer to that is an unequivocal no. Let's take an example from Scripture.

Acts 16:27-31 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Was there any sorrow here on the part of the jailor. There is nothing in the text that would lead us to believe so. What he witnessed was a miracle. It made him fear both for his life, and it made him fear the God that Paul and Silas worshiped. He knew instinctively that he was in the presence of a man whose God was the Creator and the Savior of all mankind. Without sorrow, he realized his sinful condition and need of salvation and immediately wanted to be saved. Perhaps the singing and praising of God by Paul and Silas had something to do with the preparation of his heart also. But I don't read anything about sorrow in this account. There was a frightened man knowing that he needed to be saved. And he got saved very quickly!

There was no repentance either. The sorrow/repentance would come later when he begins to study and learn about whom he just believed.

Were they saved at this stage of the game? What about the death, burial and resurrection?

 

[DHK]

There was no repentance either. The sorrow/repentance would come later when he begins to study and learn about whom he just believed.

Were they saved at this stage of the game? What about the death, burial and resurrection?

Acts 16:32-34 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
They heard the word. They ate. They rejoiced. I see nothing of sorrow; only rejoicing.

Acts 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
--No sorrow. Just a straightforward confession of Christ. Philip accepted his testimony.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--The people that were saved were those that "gladly" received his word.
--Previous to this there was conviction of sin. There must be conviction of sin. But even then that doesn't necessarily mean an emotional response--a sorrow of sin. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. It is not necessary to have sorrow in order to be saved. Sorrow is not repentance. Sorrow is not involved in repentance. Sorrow does not save. Only Christ can save.

 

[Mr.M]

I guess we need a translator but I didn't follow you??? The part I bolded, are you saying sorrow is not an emotion?

Correct, sorrow is actually NOT an emotion. It is a state of mind, a mentality. The feelings or emotions associated with sorrow are reactions to that state of mind.

For example, we cry when we loose a loved one. We are sorrowful. But why do we determine we are sorrowful? Because of the realization that we have lost someone we have loved. The emotional reaction to those thoughts is not the actual sorrow but an emotional reaction to that sorrow.

Just as happiness is a mentality. Often but not always, when a person is happy they experience positive emotions. But the positive emotions are not the happiness but the mental state, the things that the person has determined and concluded are a cause for happiness. Many people are happy for much of their life but they don't go around with a perpetual laugh or smile (though some naive believers accept this goofy concept and then set out to attempt to perpetuate this pseudo form of happiness by always grinning and smiling, even at the oddest times).

And so many people are sorrowful for extended periods of times but they don't perpetually cry, weep or shed tears. The emotions come and go but the sorrow is always present, hence it is the MENTAL attitude. Sorrow, happiness, grief, excitement...while all accompanied by familiar emotions are NOT emotions in themselves but are reactions to mental states. Hence sorrow, happiness, grief, excitement and so on are actually MENTAL attitudes.

 

[LeBuick]

Correct, sorrow is actually NOT an emotion. It is a state of mind, a mentality. The feelings or emotions associated with sorrow are reactions to that state of mind.

For example, we cry when we loose a loved one. We are sorrowful. But why do we determine we are sorrowful? Because of the realization that we have lost someone we have loved. The emotional reaction to those thoughts is not the actual sorrow but an emotional reaction to that sorrow.

Just as happiness is a mentality. Often but not always, when a person is happy they experience positive emotions. But the positive emotions are not the happiness but the mental state, the things that the person has determined and concluded are a cause for happiness. Many people are happy for much of their life but they don't go around with a perpetual laugh or smile (though some naive believers accept this goofy concept and then set out to attempt to perpetuate this pseudo form of happiness by always grinning and smiling, even at the oddest times).

And so many people are sorrowful for extended periods of times but they don't perpetually cry, weep or shed tears. The emotions come and go but the sorrow is always present, hence it is the MENTAL attitude. Sorrow, happiness, grief, excitement...while all accompanied by familiar emotions are NOT emotions in themselves but are reactions to mental states. Hence sorrow, happiness, grief, excitement and so on are actually MENTAL attitudes.

Understood, thanks...