Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)

[wopik]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Verse 16 says the dead in Christ will rise first, showing the dead will be raised an instant before the living.

Paul says this to comfort them (verse 18), because they were sorrowful about those who already died (verse 13). When he says Christ will bring those who have died, the important message is that the living and dead believers will be reunited.

Since they were sorrowful about those who had died, this was Paul's best opportunity to tell them their loved ones were happy in the presence of the Lord.

Instead, he says the dead are asleep three times (verses 13-15), then says the dead and living believers will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air (verses 16-17).

 

[wopik]

Another passage about souls is found in Revelation 20.

Verse 4 talks about souls of martyrs and says they lived and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years, also called the millennium. If souls are always conscious, it is redundant to say they lived.

Even the NIV says, "they came to life."

they came to life - link

 

[danrusdad]

Originally posted by wopik:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Verse 16 says the dead in Christ will rise first, showing the dead will be raised an instant before the living.

Paul says this to comfort them (verse 18), because they were sorrowful about those who already died (verse 13). When he says Christ will bring those who have died, the important message is that the living and dead believers will be reunited.

Since they were sorrowful about those who had died, this was Paul's best opportunity to tell them their loved ones were happy in the presence of the Lord.

Instead, he says the dead are asleep three times (verses 13-15), then says the dead and living believers will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air (verses 16-17).

1Th 4:14-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Context please! Paul is speaking with reference to the events surrounding the coming of Christ. The believers thought that those who had died had missed His coming. But assures them that, "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" vs 14. How can He bring them, if they are not already with Him? There is no such thing as "soul sleep". The term sleep was a common term to use for those who had died, and nothing more. After all,

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When we die, we immediately go to be with Him. If not, why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise THAT VERY DAY? Was Jesus ignorant or lying?

 

[Ben W]

More false teachings from the Worldwide Church of God or its splinter groups.

Jesus was recited the same tale of Soul Sleep with Lazuras in the Grave. From Martha in John 11:42 "Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the ressurection on the last day".

Yet just have a look at what Jesus says to her and understand what He is saying.

John 11:25-26 "Jesus said to her, I am the Ressurection and the Life; he who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Do you belive it that if you should die, you will still be alive? That is direct from Jesus.

As for the ressurection, we see that in Jude 14 "the Lord comes with thousands of His Saints". Hence we are comming with Jesus for the ressurection.

 

[amixedupmom]

Ok so umm Where are the dead (according to scirpture?) Is it specific?

 

[TWade]

Still on the Baptist Board pushing soul sleep, are you, wopik? The last time you were spreading this false doctrine you got mad and cursed when you couldn't answer simple questions.

 

[wopik]

danrusdad --

When we die, we immediately go to be with Him. If not, why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise THAT VERY DAY?

There is another explaination for this:

Christ told one of the thieves crucified with Him that he would be in paradise (Luke 23:43).

Since many believe in continued consciousness, they placed the comma before “today”.

"Today" was the day Christ made the promise, not the day they would be in paradise.

Jesus emphasized "today" because the thief repented and believed in Jesus that day. The previous day he was lost.

Moses uses the word "today" similarly in Deuteronomy 30:16-18. In verse 16, he commands them "today" to follow the Lord. He was not saying they only had to follow the Lord that day.

Just as Moses gave the command that day, Jesus gave the promise that day.


Then Moses says, "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish . . ." (Dt. 30: 17-18).

They did not perish that day. In fact, they did not even perish the first day they turned away, because of God's patience and mercy.

 

[wopik]

Paul is speaking with reference to the events surrounding the coming of Christ. The believers thought that those who had died had missed His coming. But assures them that, "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" vs 14.

How can He bring them, if they are not already with Him?

Because they rise to meet Him on His way down -- they "meet the LORD in the air....".


The dead aren't already in Heaven; the newly resurrected DEAD, and those still alive meet the LORD in the air ---

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven..." (1 Thess. 4:16) -- it doesn't say anyone else is with Him, as He descends out of Heaven -- just the LORD Himself.

"...the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST" (1 Thess. 4:16).

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air...."

"and so shall we ever be with the LORD" (1 Thess. 4:17).

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by wopik:
Since many believe in continued consciousness, they placed the comma before “today”.
[/QB]

Any group that has to insist that changes need to be made to the wording or the grammer of the Bible in order to support their new teaching are pushing false teaching.

If this is the case, why dont the WCOG or there sister groups simply follow the lead of the Jehovahs Witnesses and simply publish there own translation of the Bible.

the "comma" was put where it is after much study by trained scholars, and rechecked every time a new version was researched. Anyone can rip on those that translated the Bible, yet do they have anything like the knowledge of New Testament Greek? Unlikely.

Again, if someone wants to teach you something doctrinally and it rests on changing what the Bible says, RUN!!!

 

[HankD]

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These souls aren't asleep.

HankD

 

[TWade]

These souls aren't asleep.

And neither were the souls of Moses on the mount where he met with the Lord and Elijah, and neither were Lazarus and the rich man in the book of Luke. But wopik can't see that nor answer. He'll just argue over the placement of a comma, which is only found after the word "today" in the JW book.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Lea:
Ok so umm Where are the dead (according to scirpture?) Is it specific?

2 Cornithians 5:8, with the Lord.

 

[Daniel David]

Death does not mean cessation. People don't cease to exist. Death means a separation. Physical death is the separation of the material and immaterial. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit (to a place of spiritual torment) and the life giving Spirit, namely God.

Christ did not cease to exist after his death because he is the one who raised himself up from the dead (John 2).

 

[Marcia]

The cults put the comma after today only for the reason to support their doctrine of soul sleep.

Finally, we get to Jesus' words on the Cross. He said to the criminal next to him - "Truly, truly, I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Adventists and others will immediately jump in here to say that the punctuation here is in error. In the original Greek there was no punctuation, and it always had to be supplied by the translators. Thus, they tell us, this verse can also be translated like this: "Truly, truly, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise." If that is what Jesus is saying, then he is saying today that the person will be in paradise with him at some point in the future.

But can this verse really be translated this way, or is it a ploy to try to make us accept this false doctrine ?

If we take a concordance, and look up every instance where Jesus (or anyone) says "Truly, truly, I say unto you" or "Amen, Amen, I say unto you" or any of the various translations of this phrase, we will notice that in none of them do we ever find anyone saying, "Amen, Amen, I say unto you TODAY." The expression is ALWAYS "Amen, amen, I say unto you, [and then the promise or statement of fact]." Go and look this up for yourself, and go and look up the phrase involved - you will notice that it does not have a time clause in it. Because of the definite consistency in the way this phrase is used, and especially the way in which Jesus uses this phrase, we can be 100% sure that the "today" in the statement in question must belong to the second part of the statement, the promise to the thief on the cross. It cannot belong to the "Amen, Amen" or "Truly, truly" clause because it is never used that way. We must accept the grammar of this verse, and accept that that very day, the theif was with Jesus in paradise.

http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/sda/soulslp.html

Third, even though the thief on the cross has been used to prove about every point in Christian theology, his case is still relevant here: "And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise'" (Luke 23:43). The Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation punctuates Jesus words as "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise," giving the impression that "today" refers simply to the time of Jesus' statement. But the context demands that the "today" refer to when the thief on the cross would be with Jesus in paradise, because Jesus is responding to his request in the previous verse: "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom!" The response, "Today you shall be with Me in paradise" can in this context only be taken to mean, "Not only will I remember you when I come in my kingdom, but already today you shall be with me in heaven."
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/heaven/bw_death_res.html

 

[RTB]

I heard the comma placement theory from a JW once, and it sounded exactly word for word just like wopik stated it. Interesting...

In christ

Ronnie

 

[Jacob Webber]

I have a Theory that when you die and you are a Christian you drop out of Time and are automaticly at the First Resurrection. Those that are in Death and Hades are outside of time now and once the Judgement comes they go straight to the Throne of God. So there is really no Soul Sleep we step out of time to the First Resurrection depending on your relationship with Christ.

 

[GODzThunder]

that is an interesting theory. I see what you are basing that theory on. I admit that it is just a theory with no proof or verification but still, interesting and quite creative

To believe that after death we drop out of time and into eternity, Just as God stands outside of time (before abarham was I AM) meaning he is always present and in the present.

I tend to just believe that we remain in heaven until that time but it shall seem like only a moment because with the lord a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. Meaning that time will not matter in heaven because we will have fulfilled our purpose in life.

 

[saran]

I don't know what you mean by "out of Time..." but you need to study 2 Cor.5:1-8; Phil.1:23; 1Thes.4:13-17; and I think you will come to the conclusion that at the Christian's death, he (his SOUL) is AT ONCE "with the Lord" and his BODY awaits resurrection at the return of Christ. In other words: "Absent from the BODY, present with the Lord..." What a glorious assurance for Believers!!!

 

[Jacob Webber]

Saran
Think of Time as a Big Curve a Timeline Curve God is sitting outside of the Timeline and is not affected by it He can see it from beginning to End. Now there are certain points in that Time line when things will happen say for example the First Resurrestion. I do not thing people will Die than go to Heaven than come back to Earth reenter ther bodies and be resurrected. My Theory is that When you die as a Christian you step out of time. Now in my Theory the time line is a curve lets say for example the First Resurrection happens at point D and you die at point A well instead of being trapped in your body for the time from A to D you drop out of Time Straight to D the First Resurrection so You are present with Christ as soon as you die but in the Future without Soul Sleep you just drop out of One point in the Curve to the Other Point. The Drawing below althou not very good may help You as a Christian die at Point A you are part of the Time line while living. The dots represent you stepping out of time when dead and into the First Resurrection bypassing the Timeline in between Your Death and the First Resurrection


-------------------__
``````````````````/tt\
`````````````````/t__t\
````````````````/t____t\
````Point A````/..........\```Point D
````(Death)```/t_Out of_t\``(First Resurrection)
`````````````/t____Time__t\
````````````/t______t_____t\
(Time Line Start)---------(End of Time)


I have a much better drawing on this Theory I have it in HTML format as well as Excel with Bible Verse Supporting it showing the Time Line. I would post it but I do not know if I would be able to or not.

[ July 05, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Jacob Webber ]

 

[Trotter]

Interesting theory, but nothing in the Bible to back it up.

Personally, I'm not worried about it. The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and that is all I need to know.

But, some of the junk that Wopik spouts, well, I just have to stand against it.

In Christ,
Trotter